The Final Frontier.... Passe?

Over the last couple of years, I've noticed falling trend in Sci-fi space movies. Are they going out of style? I personally love them. Growing up I was completely awestruck with movies like Alien, 2010, the Star Trek movies, The Black Hole, Flash Gordon, of course the Star Wars series, and yes even "The Last Starfighter". Are they going the way of the dinosaur? Are we all bored with "the final frontier"? Granted, I don't think too many people would be heartbroken if they stopped making Star Trek movies... especially with the lack of story in the last couple. But has everyone forgotten tag lines like "In space, no one can hear you scream"? It seems like they're dieing.

Does anyone else notice this happening?

- Josh

there's nothing wrong with being based on a video game if the ideas are sound. for example, i think that "final fantasy" is a great movie, and the first "mortal kombat" is not bad. however, most of these adaptations are more interested in action rather than ideas or characters, which is why they suck, suck, suck.

Justin,

Good point about things coming and going. I suppose nothing ever disappears completely. I wonder if we're all hurting ourselves by going to see the CGI "glitz" films that have little or no plot. After all, if these films use up most of their budget on CGI, and we go see them just because they're eye candy, aren't we supporting that kind of film? I'll be the first to admit I'm one of those people that does see most "pretty" looking CGI movies, even if they look somewhat lame.

Do you think that "slapstick" is beneath us all now? Is it too "stupid" of a humor type for people to enjoy anymore? Personally I had only seen one or two "Three Stooges" episodes when I was in my early teens, and then the ALL TIME GREAT Charlie Chaplin. Of course later on came Chevy Chase and John Candy, and of course Chris Farley. It seems the only place slapstick shows up now days is in little kids movies.

Tim,

You made a lot of good points on what may and may not be "Sci-fi", and in all actuality we should probably define sci-fi by "book" standards. However, I think the dawn of movies in the early to mid 1900's defined what most of us think of as sci-fi today. E.g. War Of The Worlds, Twilight Zone (albeit tv), any multitude of the dinosaur movies starring zoomed in spiders & ants, and dressed up lizards, or the many "space ships" hanging from VISIBLE strings with a "sparkler" hanging out the back. I think to be classified a "Sci-fi" the movie has to have a HEALTHY dose of Science in it. Weather that be because the movie is set in space, or dealing with aliens, or because of cloning dinosaurs, or using empaths to find murderous people before they comit the crime.

I am looking forward to the upcoming "AVP", as well as "The Chronicals Of Riddick". However, critics are already giving Chronicals Of Riddick a bad wrap. And I can't say I blame them, when they pointed out Vin Diesel's cheasy line "the things I do for my galaxy". Don't get me wrong, I loved "Pitch Black", and I like SOME of Vin's movies. I guess we won't know until the premier.

I too grew up (albeit on the tail end) of the original Star Trek series. I loved it as a kid, as well as Battlestar Galactica, and Buck Rogers. I suppose I'm not one that sides with the "Kirk" generation, or the "Picard" generation, as I liked both series for what they were/are. I don't think it's possible to bring back the Kirk era "with new actors" just because of how many spin-off's The Next Generation has sprouted. Personally, I think they've run out of storylines, or different directions to take the idea. I liked a lot of the Next Generation movies... it's just the last two I didn't think were that great.

Before I got off on a tangent here, I was speaking specifically of "space" genre sci-fi movies. Dealing with space ships, and maybe wars in space, or just plain exploration of the unknown. Another I forgot to mention, that may not have been the best of films (Eddie! ;)) but I still think it had redeeming qualities was "Event Horizon". Intrigueing, and had the scare factor. Even "Sphere" (Dustin Hofman & Sam Jackson) was VERY cool to me. I think we've all noticed a drastic drop in story quality since the wide spread use of CGI. Hopefully movie makers will take notice, and start WRITING again! "Contact" is a good example (in my opinion) of good writing/story telling in the face of (and very little use of) CGI. I think you're right... history will repeat itself, and we'll see Sci-fi's get popular again some time down the road. "ohhh... uh oh, you definately left your shorts on the road" :D

YCH,

I never got into Babylon 5, which I sort of regret, but my "beef" with it at the time is that (in comparison to Star Trek Next Gen.) it had a crappy budget for costume AND CGI. Considering where CGI has taken us today, I may have to invest in (or rent) the Babylon series and see what the "hubub" is all about. Personally, I'm a Stargate SG-1 fenatic now. Can't get enough of it!

John,

I tend to disagree with the "Fantasy" association with Sci-fi. As you said, it's controversial. But I think my opinion above to Tim, explains why. I would still consider any of the Terminator series Sci-fi. As I mentioned above... because of the movie industry in the very beginning, I think to be catagorized as a Sci-fi, it needs to have a healthy dose of Science in it.

Eddie,

I agree that for probably every 1 successful Sci-fi, there have probably been 5 - 10 or so failures. I think Wing Commander failed because it was based on a video game, and not a previously established storyline. "Mission To Mars" felt like they were in a hurry to tell the story and get it over with. Had they taken their time, I think it had potential to be a good movie, but as a result, was a flop. I agree... the original Star Trek is like hanging out with "old friends". I mean, who can beat Kirk's "Two handed" punch?! Or the fight scene between Kirk and Spock that Jim Carey made popular all over again in "The Cable Guy". I do miss those shows, however, when I've tried to go back and watch them, I find myself distracted by all of the LAME (by comparison today) sound effects, and $10 costume budget. The newer films like "Generations" and "Insurection", were good. "Nemesis", and one other that escapes me at the moment, were just "ok" for me.


- Josh 8)

Tim,

Me? I want an all-female crew for the next "Star Trek" show. (y)

Eddie

Well, Eddie, I'll agree with you on "Nemesis". I thought that one was pretty good, too. However, I truly miss the original cast. I find that Captin Kirk and crew are much more the "buddy" feeling than the new generation. To me that's the difference between the two casts. The old cast is much easier to relate with on a human level, where the new generation I find to be much more scientifically serious; almost to the point of where they are too wooden, all serious, and yes. . .boring. Oh well, I guess everyone has their favorites, no?

:)

Tim,

Actually, I don't follow the Sci-Fi channel, but I'm sure that it does pretty well since it's been on the air for a while now. :)

As for space sci-fi movies...they're notoriously hard to do. Josh, you remember movies that are considered "good" or even "great", but I bet you that for every "Alien", there were at least 10 that were bad made around the same time. Either the story or the characters have to be especially well-done in order to make audiences care about things set in outer space. (There's a reason why "Wing Commander" and "Mission to Mars" sucked big time despite decent visual effects.) "Star Trek" endures because people love the characters, so watching a "Star Trek" movie is like hanging out with good friends. However, as someone here noted, the stories have been pretty lame with the recent movies (though I did enjoy "Nemesis" a lot).

Eddie

Wow, John, I didn't know you were a fan of "Contact". I loved that movie! Some people found it too slow, but I thought it had great visuals along with a great story. ;)

Yes, as Tim says, science-fiction has merged with the more popular genre of fantasy lately, giving us "Terminator," "Matrix," even "Star Wars." But if we can define true sci-fi as that which has not happened (yet) but could possibly happen, we shouldn't forget Speilberg's "AI" and "Minority Report." Both were sci-fi, and both were popular (if controversial). I think "Contact" was the best sci-fi film of the past decade, but that, too, is a controversial opinion.

Stuff comes and goes, as Justin said. Musicals died until "Chicago" came along and won the Academy Award. Now, every studio has a musical in production. Even the Western makes a stab (or, for punster Sean, takes a shot) at coming back now and then.

John

"even if Eddie beats the crap out of me with actual profit and loss figures. Lol "

Boy's got too much time on his hands I'm telling you ;)

EDIT: Oh you guys forget, though Babylon 5 was a TV series, damn I loved that show. I've bought the DVD sets from Seasons 1 through 4.

I’m not sure if I could say it’s dying. However, you’d think with all the wonderful CGI available to studios these days there’d be a lot more Sci-Fi. On the other hand, there are a couple coming out this summer, “Aliens vs. Predator” and “The Chronicles of Riddick”. I don’t think of it so much as dying, but rather, there just hasn’t been a “stand out” effort in quite a long time when it comes to this genre. Let’s face it; the last two Star Wars films were mediocre, at best. I really don’t think Star Trek will ever be the same without the original crew behind the wheel (yes, I realize they’re old and can never come back. My point here is I grew up on Capt. Kirk, so I admire the characters of the original crew much more than the new generation. In fact, I’d go as far as to accept new actors to play the parts of the original characters. I know that’s blasphemy to a lot of trekie fans, but you know something . . . I don’t care! )

Sci-Fi itself does have a broad field when it comes to what we interpret as Sci-Fi. According to this discussion, I assume we only mean the kind of Sci-Fi that is of the “outer space” nature. However, let’s examine the genre as a whole before we jump to conclusions. Some people would also categorize “fantasy” as being a relative to Sci-Fi. Even the “disaster” genre can be considered another relative to Sci-Fi. And no, I don’t think the disaster genre is quite dead yet. With “The Day After Tomorrow” coming out this summer, I see no hopes of it dying soon. Then there’s the genre of Sci-Fi we got with “Jurassic Park”. How the hell do we categorize that? It’s not outer space, it’s not fantasy, yet it deals with a substantial amount of science to categorize it into the Sci-Fi genre, yes? Then there’s the even more bizarre style we got with “The Matrix”. Where do we place that in the Sci-Fi library? It’s not an outer space flick, but it sure as hell is a science fiction.

So, is the genre of Sci-Fi really dying? I’d have to say no. I mean, after all, Sci-Fi has its own cable channel, no? I know that doesn’t mean that it’s the most popular genre because it has its own channel. And I’m sure Eddie will come in here to tell me that the channel actually looses money. My point is Sci-Fi does have its own cable network regardless of what shortcomings the genre may be experiencing. It also tells me that there is still enough of an audience to make it a profitable market . . . even if Eddie beats the crap out of me with actual profit and loss figures. Lol :D

However, Josh, I think I know where you’re coming from on this topic. Sci-Fi, the kind you’re talking about, just needs a jump start with a decent, well accepted film. I think we’ve had some great story’s in the past (Star Wars trilogy, Star Trek’s, Alien(s), etc.), and we’ve all set our expectations very high. Now days we just get a lot of dazzling CGI, but the story’s lack in substance. The way I see it, someone will come along to revitalize everyone’s interest, and in turn, that will set off a plethora of “outer spaces” flicks for a few years. Maybe I’m just using the cliché of “history repeats itself”, but the fact is it really does. I really wouldn’t worry, and I don’t think it’s dying . . . maybe on a slow-down, but not dying. Yeah, definitely not dying, definitely not dying . . . Wopner’s on at three o’clock, definitely three, definitely three o’clock. :D

All genres wax and wain in popularity. Slapstick comedy was big in the 20s, came back in the 70s, and now is hardly ever seen. Adventure films were huge in the 1940s, fell off in the 1950s, and came back in the 70s. A more recent example is the Disaster Movie trend of the 1990s, which dissapeared after only 5 years, but scattered films still show up. Hollywood runs in cycles of popularity, and people will see what's avaliable. But there are still good true Sci-Fi showing up, like Solaris a couple years back.

I love "Starship Troopers" and "The Last Starfighter"...
The other space sci-fi movies mentioned I consider disaster movies, and I think disaster movies ABSOLUTELY BLOW. The upcoming "Day After Tomorrow" doesn't interest me at all, and Armageddon, Deep Impact, Volcano, Dante's Peak, etc. are all TERRIBLE. I do like the whole Alien series, and both Predator movies, etc.
Star Wars Episode I was a bit of a letdown, but Episode II was a large improvement, and I eagerly await the new DVD's as long as they aren't too digitally botched (anyone who has details on the changes on the DVD's should post them).

Tim,

John and I will be visiting your home shortly. We will not leave until you agree with us that "Starship Troopers" is a good movie. :@

Eddie

You forgot "Starship Troopers" . . . talk about a movie that sucked! :.(

With the exception of Josh (who started this thread), I think all of us lost sight of the fact that we were supposed to be discussing outer-space sci-fi, not sci-fi in general. Oops! :p

Of course, TGP, you're absolutely right that sci-fi is not dead. However, space sagas are on the wane. No one cared for "Lost in Space" (that it sucked didn't help its cause). "Armageddon" and "Deep Impact" don't really count because they're meant to be "realistic" sci-fi. That really leaves us with "Star Trek" as a standard bearer, and it's a franchise that has seen better days. (I don't count "Star Wars" because that series is a self-contained phenomenon. Movies inspired by it--like "Wing Commander" and "The Last Starfighter"--haven't been financially successful.)

In regards to Next-Gen Star Trek movies, I LOVE them. "First Contact" was one of the top 5 best of all Trek movies. Sci-fi is NOT dying. There will always be a fanbase for it, and there is always a groundbreaker around the time that people say that it is failing. You saw what "The Matrix" did, and films like "Minority Report", "A.I.", "Star Wars", or even "Dune" and "Flash Gordon" will always have a broad range of sci-fi to please any given audience. I have high hopes for "I, Robot" and "AVP" and I will always love/support sci-fi. I didn't like "Mission to Mars" because it was boring and never engaged my attention. "Sphere" was okay but it was identical to the book, even dialogue was directly copied. "Event Horizon" was visually amazing and slightly scary but the final product was less than the sun of it's parts. I really love sci-fi films like "Minority Report", "Dark City", and even "The Matrix" and its sequels. I liked V and V: The Final Battle miniseries and I LOVE 2001: A Space Odyssey. Many claim that it is boring, but it is very artistic, powerful and epic. If you didn't understand it than read the book because it clears up a lot. The book and film should be sold together.
Anyway, sci-fi/fantasy will always have a special place in my heart. I grew up with Star Trek, Star Wars and The Terminator films. Although they were made before I was born, my Dad loved them and exposed me to them, and I loved them too. I like many sci-fi fantasy books too, like Michael Crichton, H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, etc. I love using the imagination, what can I say?

Gee, thanks. :p

B-5: SF Macro series. Developed characters with attitude and
their own agenda **who play for keeps**!

Ice Pirates was one of two I ever walked out on. :@

TRON!
I didn't really like "Nemesis".

I heard everyone is dragon their latest fantasy out of the closet,
thinking they are going to make the next LOTR -- HA!!!

Isn't it time that "Voyager" is brought to the silver screen?

"John,

I consider YOU to be sci-fi, though."

So, the secret is out. I suppose we won't be hearing from you ever again Eddie....

[/cue The X-Files theme]

John,

I consider YOU to be sci-fi, though. :D

Eddie

"ID4" is a comedy, pure and simple, a parody of and tribute to the old sci-fi ficks of the fifties (but not so obvious as "Mars Attacks"). "Starship Troopers" is a war movie, propaganda and all. To me, the one is funny, the other fun. I don't consider either one of them as pure science fiction.

John

I think a couple of possibilities emerge if you're talking about waning interest in Sci-Fi space movies.

1. Effects- I think the general viewing public is becoming so savvy regarding CGI that it almost seems commonplace and boring. One of the things that made space movies such a draw was the "How did they do that" kind of wonder that came from special effects. With CGI spilling over into so many different films and almost every genre, I think rather than "How did they do that?" the moviegoing public says, "Oh, that's just CGI."

2. Realism- in the 70s, there was a bent toward gritty realism in movies. I think we are going through another one of those right now. Sure we're lenient when talking about fantastical movies such as the LOTR trilogy, but when it comes to concepts that we can or can almost grasp (i.e., space exploration), reality is essential for today's current audience. Heck, look at Batman Begins. People are ecstatic that the film seems to be going for a grittier, more realistic tone. He's a man in tights and a cape!

Of course, above all else is the necessity of a good story. Without that, you're dead in the water. Possibly for whatever reason, recent space movies just haven't hit the public on a universal level.

On the record: I too greatly enjoyed Nemesis. I thought it was a good action movie. Now I'm not a huge Trek fan, so I took it for what it was and left it at that. The Last Starfighter also holds a special place for me like a few of you other folks, Starship Troopers is one of the best WWII propaganda films ever made (a little late, mind you), and Aliens...well it's gonna be hard to ever top that.

I just think that right now if it's not completely outside of reality (LOTR, superhero movies) or completely submerged in reality (reality TV, crime/suspense dramas), you're in a tough spot. Like Justin said earlier, these things wax and wane. Soon enough you'll see a glut of space movies when the public decides its time to plunk down their hard-earned dough on the one that goes through the roof! ;)

Sean (mine's definitely not hard-earned, but it is hardly urned...)

Tim,

I didn't like "Independence Day", either, but "Starship Troopers" isn't meant to be viewed as one would most movies. It's a parody/satire/critique of fascism. It's not a badly-made movie--it's meant to be "bad", lol.

Eddie

Eddie,

you are too funny! :D

I didn't know John liked Starship Troopers as well. Doesn't mean I'll change my mind though. I remember when I saw that movie in the theatre years ago. I had a friend in college that wanted to skip our night class to see that movie for his second time. He draged me along, and after the show, I looked at him in disbelief and said, "you actually liked that garbage?"

The CGI was good, the acting was lame, and the plot was so cornball that it made me wish I had a bag of tomatoes to throw at the screen. And that pathetic ending with Doogie Houser, "I sense . . . fear!" wha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. . . what a freaking riot!!!! :D

Another one that John likes, that I found almost as bad as ST, is "Independence Day". I guess I was expecting something much more serious with that film, and instead got a campy and corny plot with really cool CGI. I think that Independence Day speech Pullman does has to be one of the corniest scenes ever in that past decade. Sad thing is though, I received this movie as a gift; therefore, I reluctantly own it. Oh, well. I do like it for the CGI, but that's about it. :p

Stargate....:):)....(The Movie)...:)

TGP, I believe that's from "Last Crusade".
NO TICKET!!!

Goosh-shtepping morons like you should be reading booksh inshtead of burning them!
(JK, sorry, I couldn't resist)

I'm still waiting for a Galaxy Quest sequel where Weaver wears a much more revealing outfit.

What about The Fifth Element and Stargate?

I like the "Voyager" series, at least the ones I've ever had a chance to see. I'd pay money to see a "Voyager" movie on the big screen. ;)

(Sean Connery: "Captain Janeway ish quite shexshy. Shesh in dire need of a good shpankin' ")

"Just like your father. He's as giddy as a school boy"
"He has chosen poorly"
"You were named after the dog?"
:D

"This is how we say good-bye in GERmany."

I loved that dog!
I WAS the next man!
Shometimesh I find that if I just sit for a moment, the sholution preshentsh itshelf.
:p

Would anyone consider "Harrison Burgeron" to be SCience Fiction?
An "art" film?

I wrote it in my diary so I wouldn't have to remember!

Sean:

As far as your wondering if anyone caught the line from Henry V (thank you) in Independence day... I did! I don't know... no offense, but it seems to me we're all too critical of movies now days. Either a movie is incredibly super spiffy fantastic... or it's just plain crap. I just enjoyed Independence day for what it was. Maybe that has to do with my being in the Army when it came out? You know... being patriotic and all?

I have no idea why "Last Crusade" quotes crept into a "space sci-fi" discussion... but then again... look at my last ending quote! HA! I aaaam a hypocrite!

(queue Star Trek opening theme) "... Space... the final frontier... these are the voyages of the DVD Town message board

- Josh :p

I agree with Josh that "Armageddon" and "Deep Impact" are disaster movies rather than space operas. Being set in space is not enough to quality something as a space movie. Besides, those movies were meant to be "realistic" to some degree. There needs to be a touch of fantasy, like in "Star Trek", "Star Wars", "Battlestar Galactica", etc.

I love sci-fi films along the lines of "Dark City", and most of the Star Trek movies were good. I greatly anticipate "I, Robot" because it has the same director of Dark City and The Crow (Alex Proyas).

P.S. Only the penitent man will pass...

Depression,
I, too, can't wait for the Galaxy Quest sequel, but if Sigourney's gonna bare more than she did in the original there's gonna need to be a sequel to Calendar Girls.

Josh,
While I agree with you that Independence Day is a fun and entertaining movie, I think the fact that Pullman's line was so similar to the "St. Crispin's Day" speech from Henry V that it screams lack of creativity. I just sat in the theater thinking to myself, "Do the rest of these people realize what this is from?" It was similar to the Glory/Last Samurai training scene. Stuff like that just takes me right out of the movie.

And how did we get off on the Last Crusade quotes?

Sean (not that I could be called Captain Originality or anything...but that would be cool...) 8)

"You have your father's eyes...""...and my mother's ears, but the rest belongs to you."
"Everybody's lost but me..."

Ahh... it's fun to see these threads turn into sweaters. Almost completely off topic, and leaning towards a cocktail party conversation... but a sweater none the less.

Concerning Starship Troopers. It WAS meant to be 'bad', and make fun of any number of things as Eddie mentioned. I mean who DIDN'T laugh at the line "would you like to know more?" inbetween EVERY news cast in the movie? That movie was incredibly funny, and had great action. And even though it's based off of a Heinlein book, how could you miss Director Paul Verhoeven's poke at the Hitler Era with the "SS" wings and beret's worn by all of the "Troopers"? I think if you hated Starship Troopers... you missed the point of it.

As for the bringing in of "disaster" movies and plunking them into the "space" Sci-fi genre that I was speaking of... I don't think they fit. Just because the cast of "Armageddon" went INTO space (during the last 20 min. of the movie) doesn't qualify it to be a "space" genre movie in my book. The vast majority of the film was spent on Earth preparing to save it from an asteroid, and had no real "sci-fi" merit what soever.

The Fifth Element is an excelent and unique "space" Sci-fi movie. Stargate is another good one!

Skspence:

Good point about the 70's, and being in awe of "Special Effects" (as they were known in the day). The "how did they do that" factor, I think has quite literally been lost. No one cares about special effects anymore because it's all assumed to just be "CG". And since virtually anything can be done in CG, the mystery is lost. I wonder if we'll EVER see the kind of quality "stop motion", and use of REAL models again as we saw in Star Wars IV, V, & VI? I think what made those movies (and movies of that era) "SFX" so believeable was because they WERE using REAL models. That means REAL lighting and shadows, REAL camera motion, REAL "weathering" on models, and yes... REAL explosions! Albeit on a 32nd or 64th scale, but real just the same. That's my theory anyway.

Tim:

Concerning "Independence Day". The movie is another "poke fun" at the older style films. However, I think you missunderstood Bill Pullmans speach in the film. That speach is actually an adaptation of a speach made by a character in Shakespear's "St. Crispon's Day". It's a very dramatic and inspirational speach if you read the original. Pullman's adaptation was very well done in my book. He wouldn't have been my first choice to pull the line off, but did quite a good job in my opinion. That speach is one I could see George C. Scott pulling off though! Can we say PATTON?!

Anyway... This has been another Nachtkriechen reply. The views expressed by Nachtkriechen are not necessarily of the staff of DVD Town, or it's owners or affiliates therein, and were in no way was Nachtkriechen re-embursed for his views and opinions. Some assembly required, batteries not included... and Oh, if you have any problems, dial information, thank you for calling.

- Josh 8)

And what about "Slaughter House 5"? You could almost say the makers of "The Matrix" had stolen some of their ideas from this film. Sure it's old and a bit tough to watch, however, in the end, it's a Sci-Fi about control.

As far as "Starship Troopers" and "Independence Day" goes, I did get the point. All I'm saying is I don't care for that type of campy humor. I like my humor more slappy, sarcastic, and edgy. "Austin Powers", "Blazing Saddles", "Caddy Shack", "Airplane" are a few that are more of the type of comedy I appreciate.

Connery -"It tellsh me that people like yourshelf should try reading booksh inshtead of BURNING THEM!!!"

:D

Tim,

John and I are still not leaving your house. :@

Eddie

P.S. Just kidding! :D

The troopers last stand at the frontier outpost against about a trillion giant, wild bugs has got to be classic.

John

Eddie,

You and John would have to tie me up and put me in a straitjacket to get me through "Starship Troopers" again. :p :D

So then why didn't they just make a giant can of Raid? See, now that would have been funny. :D

Tim... you rock! That's all there is to it. I'm actually surprised that joke wasn't made in Starship Troopers.

- Josh 8)

The movie does have an awesome joke about Mormons, though. :D

By the way, no offense meant to any Mormons. :D

Accepted.

John

Seconded.

- Josh :)