Michael Moore Vs. America...

Michael Moore aroused a lot of acclaim and a lot of controversy for his last documentary "Bowling For Columbine", and it looks like he aims to do it again with "Fahrenheit 9/11". My question to you is, what do you think of Michael Moore?
I viewed Bowling For Columbine recently. It was somewhat humorous and shed some light on important issues. However, I find Moore to be a total whiner. I'm only 15, I don't vote yet, and i don't know enough about politics to make a solid decision, so I'm not a Bush supporter or hater. I'm just trying to learn all of this stuff. Moore purposefully set up all of the people he interviewed to look like total morons. It has been stated in many reputable publication sources that Moore fudged the facts or carefully edited things to support his points. Bowling For Columbine was a worthy rental but i don't understand why anyone would buy it or how it got so much critical acclaim. He didn't make fun of the NRA as some suggested, but he commented on how much of their policies are contradictory or dumb, even though he says he's a member. If Moore hates all this stuff so much, why does he put up with it? He doesn't agree with the NRA but he's a member and he hates the hypocrisy of the US yet he still lives here. He never seems to grasp that, even though America has it's problems like any other country that we are still way better off than most other places. I wonder if he has ever experienced firsthand what REAL hypocrisy is in a place like South Korea. Moore seems to hate America, and that's his opinion. My question is, why doesn't he movie to Canada? Nobody's making him live here and he says how much he loves Canada all the time. The thing that really got me about Bowling is, even though he brought up some good points, he never offered a possible solution to the problem. He merely complained about how much this country sucks, and then it ends with no resolution or feasible solution to the problem. He won the Oscar for best documentary, which he probably deserved when compared to the other nominees, but his speech about "a fictional president" was totally absurd and inappropriate. The Academy Awards are an honor to films and actors, not a place to spew unsolicited political opinions. Love or hate Bush, you don't say crap like that at th Oscars. I was so mad about that. He also blames all of America's problems on Bush, as if we didn't have problems before he was elected or as if there wasn't a commitee, Senate, etc. of elected officials that helps make decisions with the President. I don't know, I have a lot of problems with Michael Moore. He has books as well, and all of them are 300 page manifestos on how much Bush sucks, and it's getting real old. We get the point, he hates Bush, move on. I'll probably see Fahrenheit 9/11 out of curiousity but I'll wait till it comes to DVD. All of Moore's films thus far have been about exposing how much America sucks, and it's getting tired. I'm sure Fahrenheit will make lots of $ nd raise just as much controversy and acclaim.
What do you guys think about Michael Moore? I'm sure people have other opinions...

As an addendum to my last post, about Americans believeing the spoon-fed media, just look at diets. This is non-political, but here in AMerica the low-carb diet craze is everywhere. Commercials and labels mention that all of their products now have a low-carb version, from everything to bread, burgers and soda. I laughed when I read a poster at Wendy's that said "Order your burger without the bun if you're counting carbs" and that poster was NOT a joke. If one doctor says that lower carbs decrease your chance of cancer then all these Americans will go off and do it because their anorexic 80 lb. bodies are too fat. Diets are fads that come and go. One day eggs are bad for you and the next day they aren't. Many dieters were healthy and they feel a need to be skinnier for one reason or another. Any food in moderation with exercise is okay for you to eat. Not a political topic, but it's another case in which Americans generally believe everything that is written in a biased, one-sided or incredible media source. Michael Moore is only pouring gas on the flame, as is Rush Limbaugh or any other biased political activist.

Actually, I believe that the world would be a better-balanced place without either Michael Moores or Rush Limbaughs. However, that's not possible, so we have to deal with people who represent extremes.

That being said...

Moore makes some good points, but his delivery is reprehensible. I would've been more receptive to "Bowling for Columbine" had he not done what he's done with every one of his movies:

1) Neglected to mention how he got his "facts" and "statistics";
2) Neglected to place his "facts" and "statistics" in proper contexts (for example, his lists the number of gun murders in various countries, but he doesn't list the years during which those murders took place...for all we know, he could've been comparing Japan in 1950 to U.S.A. in 1995);
3) Reversed cause-and-effect situations so that he makes the effects looks like the causes (VERY misleading and atrocious, even if certain events are linked).

By the way, Sasha, no rational person would consider you to be a U.S.A.-hater. For the most part, as has been noted in another thread, people who visit DVD Town are nice and respectful. I agree with TGP and his assessment of what you wrote.

TGP--it's very refreshing to find a teenager who acknowledges that he needs and wants to learn. I remember being 15 and being pooh-poohed by my colleagues when I suggested that they find out about more than just what trucks to buy.

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 10, 2004]

It is true, many Americans are gullible or they just believe everything that is spoon-fed to them by the media. Why are we still in Iraq if Bush said almost two years ago that the war was over? What are we actually doing there? It's become practically common and even expected for an American President to cheat on his wife. It's so lame that we have sunk that low. But, I still have faith in America. After all, like all countries we have our problems but we are MUCH better off than a Thrid-World country that has REAL problems. I just went to Mexico for a trip which included helping out at a boys orphanage, and let me tell you, what we take for granted is unbelievable. How many of you actually think about what you are doing when you turn on your sink to cool, clean running water? Or flushing your toilet? Or eating at McDonald's? I doubt many of you have, and I often don't either. I won't lie to you and tell you that I know everything about the war and why it happened. I don't know everything about chemical weapons or Bin Laden or anything. No Sashaofspain, you are not an America hater. What you say is very true.

I once spoke on this forum against conservative party´s administration, if only in a one line question. I remember that one user told me to shut up, and another told me to shut up politely.

As someone who loves America and having spent there a great deal of time it is more than a little bit disopointing to me that you guys can be so easily brain washed. Your President tells you there are weapons of mass destruction, so a preemptive strike is necessary. Then it turns out he knew there probably were none, so he tells you your men and women, (what is it, like 18 to 20 y.o.?) are liberating the country. Yeah, well. That´s nice. A lot of countries need liberating, but not many of them are oily ones. The people of the United States once made a big fuss about a President who lied about his mistress, but it does not bother very many of you that another President sent your neighbors and relatives to die in a war started on false pretense.

And let me tell you something else. John is absolutely right about the balance. If there is Rush Limbaugh, there should be a Moore. If one guy says that it is no big deal the guards torturing prisoners who "shoot at them for trying to help" (conveniently forgetting the fact that many of those prisoners are actually innocent fathers and sons, who were arrested because thay "might know something" or mistakenly) --if one guy says that, perhaps another one should voice his doubts about a lying President.

I hope I will not be considered a hater of the U.S.

Remember that business about a "balance in the force" in relation to "Star Wars"? There needs to be a balance in democracies, too. Whether Moore is a fair and honest observer, a biased reporter, or an outright liar is beside the point. The fact that he and others like him exist is necessary to a balanced society. If the present administration can lie about their reasons for doing whatever they do (going to war, inflating energy bills, lowering taxes for the rich), then we need people like Moore on the other side to counterbalance it.

Whether Moore is right or wrong is immaterial. He and his kin rattle cages, wake minds, remind us that we don't have to accept everything we're told, (not even from him). It's why free speech was invented to go along with a free country.

Besides, his films are funny as well as controversial. They're not meant to be "documentaries," which is the contradiction in his getting an Oscar for Best Documentary; they're thoughtful entertainment. Taken as such, they stir up thought. Nothing wrong with being stimulated intellectually and entertained at the same time.

John

TGP,

Of course he'll find something else. That's what he does. Moore was writing books and making movies long before Bush came along and will continue to do so for years to come.

There's no denying that Moore tips the scales both in weight and liberalism, but I think folks give him too much credit. When we see somebody speaking out against something we believe in on the news we often think he/she is just a loon. Chalk Moore up to a loon with a budget.

Moore gets so much attention because people allow themselves to get whipped into a frenzy over what he says. This is exactly what he wants. From that perspective, he is a very accomplished and talented instigator.

If nothing else, one should be able to admire the fact that he is involving himself in the system moreso than the vast majority of this nation. One of our basic and most valued freedoms is our unfettered ability to speak out against those in power or speak up for those in need. Considering that less than 1/3 of this country's citizens actually take the time to vote in general elections (forget primaries), Moore is at least raising his voice and taking advantage of the rights that so many Americans squander. Hate him or love him, there's something to be said for that.

Sean (...me, I just keep myself quiet...oh, wait...that's my other personality...) :o

Answer me this:
Should a 320 lb. man be warning us about overconsumption?
Should a man living in a beautiful studio apartment be advertising himself as an average working stiff?
When Bush isn't President anymore, what is Moore going to do? He'll have to whine about something else for once... I'm sure he'll find something.

Michael Moore, eh? There's a can o' worms.

It's funny to me that so many people get up in arms over Moore. He's been doing the same thing for over a decade, but with each new film or book, it's like he's fresh on the scene. I just expect this kind of stuff from him.

I think the best thing to remember about Michael Moore is that he is NOT a documentarian. He is an activist, plain and simple. His venue, however, is mainstream media which elevates his profile. Rather than a picket sign, he uses a camera. He definitely tries to blindside his interviewees, and his reason is not to be a fair journalist but to shore up his side of the issue. This is also the reason he uses very selective numbers to back up his claims, but then again so do news outlets and politicians.

What we all have to remember is that anything we watch, read, or listen to is automatically tainted with bias either by the writer, speaker, director, or all of the above as well as various others including the listener. Moore is anything but fair and biased. As mentioned above, his intent is to press his side of the issue.

Having said that, I think it's best to view his "documentaries" as entertainment. Do not go into his films expecting a view of all sides of a situation, but rather anticipate a set of building blocks that lead up to his already decided conclusion much as you would a piece of fiction.

Moore is a political activist. He puts forth his ideas in a hope that others will investigate further and urge their lawmakers to do something about things relating to his agenda, just as any activist does. However, his approach and lack of including ALL facts often leaves something to be desired. Take him not as a purveyor of truth, but as a showman above all else. He's certainly entitled to his opinion, and I think we can all agree that it's pretty easy to predict the stance he will take in his films.

That being said, there is a big difference between hating America and hating America's current state of affairs. I'm not so sure Moore hates America as much as he feels it's not living up to its potential. But then again, could it ever?

Do I agree with some of Moore's ideas and insights? Yes. Is it because of Moore's work that I believe so? No.

If you like him, great. If you don't, remember that overzealous grumblings only lend to his notoriety, and thus many more people will be interested in figuring out what all the fuss is about. Thusly, they will be more interested in hearing what he has to say. As the saying goes: there's no such thing as bad publicity...

If you don't like Moore, make sure you steer clear of Al Franken!

Sean (...we're gonna need a blowtorch to seal this can back up!...) ;)

Michael Moore is a liar.