Ugh. Kilgore advocates. Maybe this is Kilgore under another name? Well, that's original.

This is why I let this go in the first place. The info. Kilgore gave, is NOT "evidence". If I wanted to, I could probably find "evidence" on the net somewhere that proves that every American is an "Infidel", supporting Osama's beliefs! That doesn't make it FACTUAL, or "evidence" by any stretch of the imagination! Furthermore, the mere fact that you are turning a blind eye to "Fahren-hype 911" or other "evidence" (as you call it), proves that you're just as blindly following what you believe, as what you "claim" Conservatives are doing. Firstly, I didn't assume you were anything BUT, a Moore defender! I never said anything about "fanatical". Again, that's YOUR assumption. However, you DID defend "Moore" in your last post, so it wasn't an "assumption" that you were a "Moore defender". That's called an "observation".

Secondly, "All of the footage is real and irrefutable. Sure there are some tricky edits..." - Viter. Are you even listening to yourself?! You just proved my point with that statement! Evidence is NOT irrefuteable if there are ANY "tricky edits"!!! That's called manipulation of the facts! Once you toy with the way things REALLY happened, it's no longer factual, because you're not allowing the viewer(s) to make up their own minds! In fact, by doing so, you're calling your viewers STUPID, because you don't think they're capable of making up their own minds! You have to "TRICK" them into thinking what you want them to think! Wow, and they call Conservatives "blind sheep". I would say, you're just hearing what you wanted to hear, and aren't "questioning" the information you're being fed.

Oh well. To each their own. You obviously believe just as adamantly about what you believe, as I do in what I believe. So, I applaud you for that. But I think, as with Kilgore, nothing is being resolved here. You don't understand my perspective, I don't understand yours..., no progress is being made, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

If you choose to stick around DVD Town. Welcome. I'll understand if you don't think that's genuine sentiment, given the nature of this discussion so far, but it is.

Welcome Viter, and I'll see you on the boards. :)


- Josh

your assumption is I'm some Moore-fanatical defender. I thought the movie merely stated a lot of obvious things that have been reported in the news. And, much of the Bush acting foolish footage has been shown on The Daily Show and ifilm. And, making the President look foolish isn't that tough to do. He's an idiot. I get it already.

But all this talk about F911 being a complete lie is bull shit. All of the footage is real and irrefutable. Sure there are some tricky edits, and a few things that you can nit-pick at. But, much of the film's facts do come from credible sources. Films like Fahrenhype and Celcius 411 don't even have enough material to attack the facts of the film and usually resort to attacking Moore. Kilgore has already made the challenge to give facts that disprove the whole movie, but you balked out. Kilgore's even given you the link to Moore's evidence.

,

I think you need to read my last post again. It was a "QUOTE" taken from dictionary.com. Thus, it being the DEFINITION of the word "documentary". Secondly, what I wrote, wasn't a "statement", it was a rhetorical question. If you're a "Moore" fan, then you should be used to rhetoric by now. ;)

More to the point, (or should I say "Moore" to the point) Moore himself has admitted that he manipulated the facts to illustrate his point in his so called "documentary". You're right in one aspect I think. Maybe it isn't possible for any book or movie to be 100% objective. However. When the author/director comes right out and admits that he was editing his "work" to illustrate his point, it's no longer a "documentary" and is only marketed as such to further "illustrate" (or 'manipulate'... take your pick) his point. "Fahrenheit 911", is no more a documentary about President Bush and his cabinet, September 11th, or anything else Moore threw in there, than "Saving Private Ryan" was a documentary about WWII. "SPR" was an entertaining (and shocking) manipulation of facts and dramatizations for film. "Fahrenheit 911" is nothing more. Spielberg just has more talent, and doesn't have to rely on manipulated facts and current controversy to sell his movies. :x

I think it's funny that you make a lot of "blanketed" ass-umptions about myself and or anyone else that doesn't agree with "you". Take your second to last paragraph, and in place of "Bush" put "Moore" and make similar allegations towards him, and your statement would still stand. You're just as "fumed" (as you allege conservatives are about Bush) that I said anything against your precious "Moore". For you, anyone speaking out against "Fahrenheit 911" is anti-Moore, and is simply being non-objective, and YOU just can't admit it! Otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread back up, no?! ;) :x

""Documentary" is defined as "Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film" - Dictionary.com. Moore has made his political views known, as well as his opinions about President Bush, so why should we suddenly believe that he'll objectively present his film to us?"
- Nachtkriechen

What a ridiculous statement... If that is your standard on what a documentary is, then there truly can't be anything called a documentary. The fact is every film and documentary has a view point. This whole thing controversy thing didn't happen to non-objective films like "Super Size Me", "A Thin Blue Line", or "paradise lost", etc...
And is it humanly impossible for a documentary, or any book or newspaper to be absolutely 100% objective?

What consevatives can't admit is that even had the film been super super objective, they would still be fuming like mad. It's not even that this film isn't objective that make their blood boil, it's just that it's against Bush and against war.

And to attack this movie for being non-objective is simply attacking the whole subject which is anti-Bush. For them, any movie that is anti-Bush even if it was completely factual is simply being 'non-objective'. They just can't admit it.

Viter,

First off, I never claimed to know everything, and what I have laid claim to, has been either "opinion" (and quite clearly stated), or information that I've personally come into contact with. Michael Moore admitted himself, to manipulating the information in his film, as a guest on the HBO show "Real Time with Bill Maher" (formerly the Television show "Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher"). This episode aired at the height of controversy surrounding "Fahrenheit 911" last year. "Bill Maher", is about as "left wing" as you can get. Being that I do tend to lean more towards Conservative/Republican, I watch Bill because he's a smart person, and to help keep my own opinions in better balance, and to hear both sides. If you're interested, I'm sure with a little bit of investigating, you'd be able to get a transcript of the show, or better yet, with a little more digging beyond that, you'd be able to find the episode itself.

I don't have the resources to go and counter each and every claim made by Moore either. So why require it of me, simply because Moore supplied sources to verify his claims? I've also seen a video clip from F911 the way it was portrayed in the film, then the full clip unedited. The difference between the two forms of the same clip made the person being interviewed look like an idiot, in F911, but when viewed in it's entirety, made total sense, and the person came off as intelligent. If you watch "Fahrenhype 911", they make various comparrisons of this same type of "manipulation".

In addition, I don't need to ask the families of the soldiers in Iraq. I was a soldier in the Army during the tail end of the first war in Saudi Arabia, and during the conflict in Bosnia/Herzegovina. I spent 4 years in the Army. My family went through their own stress and worry over me while I was in the Army. I also spent 3 years in the Air Force, and I'm proud to be a Veteran! I'm proud to have served my country, and would do it again in a heartbeat! Make no mistake. The soldiers that are over there, are there by choice, and do so with heart. Their families know that, and are just as proud of them. I really wish people would stop portraying them as "those poor soldiers over there in harms way". It demeans the honorable and patriotic act they're performing. They know (just as I did) what they're getting into when they sign up.

At any rate, it's just pointless to continue this discussion. Nothing is being gained.


Eddie,

As per usual you make some excellent points, as did csjlong. I realize that every language is a constantly evolving and changing thing, but if we stray completely, why keep dictionaries around at all? In any case, this thread has seen more than it's fair share of posts (no offense TGP). I guess I just need to learn to tie my fingers up. I'll let it go by the way side.

Thanks Eddie.



- Josh

Josh,

No problem, man. As you know, I think that you're one of the good guys. In fact, I would say that you're one of the top-five best-behaved DVD-Town visitors. I don't think that I've ever come across a post by you that was even a little bit angry. I appreciate your contributions to discussions.

As for dictionaries and definitions...they're not infallible. While we should follow general rules and structures, we should also be prepared to accept new realities. The fact that you watch movies and TV shows from across the entire political spectrum makes me respect you a lot since you're obviously an open-minded and fair person.

For the record, I consider myself on the left, but I hate Bill Maher, too. The guy's a dick. ;)

Eddie

Eddie,

Thanks for you comments. I think I've mentioned before that I "try" to be objective. Though, I am human. I have my beliefs, morals and standards. I stand up for them when I think they need be. With little exception, I've always appreciated people whom do the same. In all fairness to "Michael Moore", his whole goal behind F911, was to "get people involved". He's accomplished that, I'd say. I mean, take myself for example. I admire the things he's standing up for, but I can't condone the ways in which he's doing it. I try not to "hate" anyone. Moore's made it REALLY hard for me not to hate him. But... he is whom he is. You can't fault people for being themselves.

You're right. Dictionaries are just a reflection of the language in it's current state. They're written by humans, and inso are imperfect. Ugh. I just hate it when nothing seems tangible. If it's all up in the air, we have nothing to fall back on.

It's too bad that as a nation we're still so torn apart. It's like people are just in tune with being angry all of the time. I'll leave it at that, so as not to come off as flowerchildesque.


As far as "Bill Maher" goes, I think he's a really intelligent guy. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But since I have seen how passionate he is about his left wing views, and then he can turn around and be polite, and cordial, to certain "right wing" guests he's had on his program, and it makes me listen to what he has to say with an open mind. He's even defended a "right wing" guest's opnion against his audience's booing. That really impressed me. However, most of the time, you're right... he is "a dick". Though... he is also a comedian. ;)

Optima Quoeque Honesta

- Josh