"Clinton did not inherit the worst economy since the great depression. It was Reagan? He turnd it around. Clinton inherited a very good economy." --mra

mra, I'm shocked that you would actually distort history this way. Or perhaps you seriously just don't know any better, for which I am not shocked but sorry.

Are you so very young you don't remember that Clinton's whole campaign slogan his first time around was "It's the economy, stupid?" After Reagan built up the biggest national deficit in the history of the country, exceeded only now by Bush the younger, Bush the elder inherited it and had to raise taxes to help regain some econonic stability ("Read my lips: No new taxes," and then Bush Sr. raised taxes). But it didn't help, and it took Clinton to get the economy working again and lower the national debt.

As Jim has pointed out before, though, the Republicans are much better liars than the Democrats, and the nation's sheep are much more easily lead by big lies. Just keep saying something often enough, and the stupider people of a society will, in fact, believe it. The very fact that the Republicans have turned the word "liberal" into something akin to being in league with Satan is good example. They're good at such name-calling ("Flip-flopping liberal"), and you can't blame them as they have so little else of substance to argue.

John

mra,

George W. Bush did not pick his people--George H. W. Bush picked George W. Bush's people for him. Alas, that decision has bitten the dad in the ass since the son has turned out to be a religious fundamentalist only a shade or two better than the fanatics who attacked American on 11 Sept.

I was using an example to illustrate my point about people using the term "elitist" abusively towards individuals who don't deserve it. Notice how I did not endorse either Bush or Kerry; instead, I expressed bewilderment that people think it's okay to make irrational personal attacks against Kerry just for being able to speak more than one language.

At any rate, you created this thread with a lot of unsubstantiated angry attacks. What's disturbing is that you're considering not voting for Bush, yet you go on a rampage attacking John Kerry with lies and idiotic assumptions. It's understandable to be sick of politics, but your version of politicking is insidious, pernicious, and exactly the kind of thing that you say that you're against.

Eddie

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 24, 2004]

Ah, but Josh, I didn't claim that Kerry would do a better job than Bush is doing. :)

Besides, Bush's best is simply inadequate, and Bush has been very honest about his policies, allowing everyone to see that they suck. It's time to pull the plug on this guy.

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 24, 2004]

Eddie,

Let me pre-empt this by saying I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to point out a truth.

If you take your last post, and replace "Kerry" where you've entered "Bush", your arguement still stands. Good intentions are good intentions no matter whom they're coming from. Kerry has just as many "good intentions", and "may" screw up just as badly as Bush if given the chance. None of us will know for sure, until he's had his turn in "the big chair".

All we can ask of either candidate is for them to do their best, to be honest with us all, and hope it comes out with a positive end result for our country, and the world.

- Josh

Josh,

Agreed, but part of the problem is precisely that Bush really does think that he's trying to do a good job. However, good intentions that yield bad results are still reprehensible, no matter how well-meaning you were in the first place.

As they say in the anime series "Noir" (reviewed here by me), "Love can kill."

Eddie

"Did ya hear Mr. Kerry asking for a hunting licensee the other day?" --mra

Yes, Mr. Kerry appears to enjoy hunting. So do a lot of other Americans.

"Did ya hear him ADMITTING he was a WAR CRIMINAL and accused his comrades of being war criminals too?" --mra

No, because nobody heard him say these things. During his anti-Vietnam days Kerry repeated to Congress what he had heard from other soldiers.

"Then the viet-cong used his statements to add to the torture of U.S. POW's..." --mra

Yes, just as the Viet Cong used all antiwar sentiments to support their side. It's what all combatants do during war time. It's called propaganda.

"I guess if you hate America and speak French you are considered intelligent." --mra

Now you're being silly, and I'm sure you know that's not what Eddie was saying.

"Kerry and Bush went to the same school and belong (ed?) to the same secret society." --mra

Yes, they both went to Yale and are both members of the Skull and Bones. I appear to have missed your point.

"...the fact that being able to speak more than language is really a plus." But it does not help you as president, especially if you happen to be THE MOST LIBERAL senator in the U.S." --mra

Mr. Kerry's "liberal" rating was based only this last year's voting record, a record that did not include very many votes in the Senate because Mr. Kerry was out campaigning. Overall, for his years in the Senate, Mr. Kerry is ranked about fifteenth or so most liberal. And, incidentally, what's wrong with being liberal? It means that you look at both sides of the issues and make up your own mind about things, as opposed to marching lock step with your "conservative" friends.

"Then they go see Mr. Moore's movie and believe all his lies." --mra

Michael Moore admits his movie is propaganda, not straightforward new reporting, and as such it sometimes distorts the facts to his advantage. There is nothing new about this.

"Did you hear Mrs. Kerry say that Mrs. Bush never had a real job?" --mra

Did you hear Mrs. Kerry immediately issue an apology, having forgotten that Mrs. Bush was once a school teacher?

"Did ya notice that every time she speaks somewhere, the polling numbers immediately go down a few points?" --mra

Do you realize you are now engaging in propaganda of the worst kind yourself by making things up? Or did you read somewhere that this was true, like on a Republican conservative Web site?

"Did ya ever hear Jimmy Carter pronounce nuclear? "nucaler"?" --mra

Yes, Mr. Carter's Southern accent sometimes sounds different to people in other parts of the country. Did you know that Republican President Eisenhower also pronounced "nuclear" as "nucaler"?

"Then he goes down to S. America with the U.N. to certify elections. The exit polls are the total opposite of the results and he says they are just fine. Then he fawns all over Castro. And people say he is the most intelligent, best ex-president ever." --mra

You're either making stuff up again or getting your information from Rush.

"Who won the cold war, Reagan or Carter?" --mra

Actually, neither President "won" the Cold War.

"Who produced a booming, low-inflation economy after inheriting the worst economy since the great depression?" --mra

Clinton.

Sorry to seem so contrary, mra, but you appear agitated about Eddie's remarks and are starting to get carried away with spreading misinformation.

--John

Hi y'all, TGP here. Haven't posted in awhile, but I need to sound off on this:
First of all, I hate it whenever someone spews their unsolicited, biased opinion everywhere. But, that's what I'm doing right now and that's why America is so cool. I'm in High School, and the school is infested with people that have no real political knowledge yet still insist on letting everyone know that they're pro-Bush or pro-Kerry or pro-Nader or whatever. It seems like they are just regurgitating what their parents are saying at home. It's literally TRENDY to spew your political opinion everywhere, because people know that what they say will spark a conversation and people will listen to them and rebute. Like I said, most of us don't have any REAL political knowledge. They don't put everything in newspapers and TV, and many of these publications are biased anyway. My opinion is, it is great to have a political opinion and voting is one of the best things you can do. But I don't want anyone under any circumstance (unless it's an official debate or a valid political conversation) to try to convince me that my political affiliation is wrong. I have no political affiliation since I am 16 and unregistered. So basically, my opinion does not matter at all for another 2 years, and I can't make a dent in the polls. So I try to stay as far away from political conversations as I can. These high school kids like myself don't really know anything, they just repeat what their parents say. I live in a household with a very pro-Bush anti-gun control Dad and a pro-Kerry Mom. Imagine how interesting dinner conversations can be, and how annoying they are to someone like me. But like I said, it's what makes AMerca so sweet is that we have the privlege to discuss and choose our political leaders... after a half-dozen recounts. If Arnold can be a governor, anything can happen.
BTW, I'm watching True Romance as I type this so I'm in a certain mood.

TGP (Don't even get me started on Michael Moore...)

I have to agree with John, mra. It's best to know your history, and when it comes to facts, back them up with resources instead of common banter. I understand that during election time people tend to get a little one-sided for their parties without examining both sides of all issues involved. I'm not saying that Kerry is the answer to all ills of our country, but Bush has had four years and has not done anything to better my well being, or the well being of any of my friends and family.

Here's what I've seen in the last four years under his watch.

1. A pointless war that has produced no weapons of mass destruction.

2. A downsizing of the middle class of America that continues to get worse.

3. Bin Laden is still on the loose.

4. Gas prices at their highest levels ever in our history.

5. Social security a complete disaster since the Republican government has taken from the funds to support the war effort in Iraq.

6. Tax break? What tax break? You mean the one we got three years ago in about a $300 check that is now being recollected through high gas prices?

7. Health care and insurance are still at criminal levels, thanks to nothing being done about dirty lobbyists groups.

8. Loyal allies lost thanks to poor foreign policies and rash decision making by G. W. himself.

9. A sluggish economy that is outpaced by the cost of living going up at astonishing levels, but nobody’s income has increased to compensate for it.

10. Unemployment up at its highest compared to over ten years ago, but as Bush said in the last debate, “go get an education if you’re out of a job”! Yeah, nice answer, and put yourself more in debt when you have to pay that student loan four years later.

11. Personal bankrupts at their highest in the last four years.

12. Science (stem cell research to be specific) has taken a back seat thanks to George’s religious agenda.

13. The FCC playing their own version of Germany from 1939, even though we are granted freedom of expression and speech according to our constitution.

14. Illegal immigration at the highest levels in the last four years, and climbing I might add.

15. Jobs taken from our own country and given to people overseas.



Would you like me to continue?

As I said, I’m not saying Kerry will be the President to beat all, but at this point in the game, anything is better than what we have dealt with in the past four years.

And the press is flying cover for W. Did you see today's AP story about the Kyoto protocol, where Russia has agreed to come onboard? There's just one paragraph mentioning the U.S. and Australia were the only major countries to "reject it." Excuse me, but the U.S. was onboard under Clinton. It was Bush who pulled out of the protocol, saying the cost of cleaning up the environment was too great for U.S. businesses. And here's the official Bush response to the article, which offered no other perspective:

"White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said President Bush 'has a strategy to address the challenges of climate change by harnessing technology and taking advantage of growth and he believes it's important that we address this challenge in a way that does not cost American jobs." What BS. Jobs lost aren't his concern. When Bush led a bailout of Boeing, giving them money to presumably help them avoid laying off people, the company pocketed the money and still laid everyone off. Did Bush rebuke them? Hell no. It's big business as usual.

An AP poll now shows that most Americans think Bush has messed up Iraq, the economy, and domestic issues . . . but that they don't trust Kerry because he's a "flip-flopper." Too bad they don't bother to read anything more than the Republican soundbytes that have labelled Kerry. Which is to say that the Republican PR machine is succeeding in obscuring the truth once more. Can you think of a single person who's parrotted the Republican charges and slogans and also backed it up with full-context examples? All of Kerry's "flips" and "flops" make perfect sense if you consider each individual circumstance, in context. Only this president and his handlers make a virtue out of simplicity and arrogant stubbornness. The sad thing is that while presidents have had speech writers for a long time now, Bush is the first true puppet president this nation has ever had--someone incapable of thinking or talking on his own, or without handlers scripting him--hence the lack of press conferences. Whatever happened to voting for someone capable rather than likable? Gore's 25 years of experience was trumped by Bush's one and a half terms as a governor presiding over a part-time legislature, while Gore, full of facts and figures and specifics, was branded a "policy wonk" as opposed to the "charming" Bush. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Republicans have better PR people able to convince voters black is white and night is day. And you can't win with this group or the media. After the first debate, everyone clamoured for specifics. For the second debate, Kerry responded with more details and directed people to his website, and what do Republicans and comedians focus on? "I have a plan."

What frosts me the most, still, is Bush's baldfaced refusal to testify before the 9/11 Commission after fighting it's establishment and then finally agreeing only if he didn't have to be under oath, if he could have Cheney at his side to jerk his strings, and if the session would remain secret. This is the secret presidency, and that's as dangerous as what he's done to the environment, U.S. foreign relations, and the economy.

There. I've dumped. But for the past four years, and I sincerely hope not for another four, I've felt more like the dumpee than the dumper. All Americans should feel this way, and it puzzles me that half don't seem to get it.

I don't even know what I posted elsewhere that prompted this barrage of unsubstantiated invective from mra. In fact, prior to this thread, I had thought of him as one of the good guys.

At any rate, I didn't say that being able to speak more than one language makes Kerry qualified to be president. All I'm claiming is that speaking more than one language should be viewed as a plus rather than a minus.

I went to an Ivy League university, too. Fully a third of the students were there because of connections. Bush's dad went to Yale, too. Legacies are usually not denied admittance. So what if W. went to Yale? He didn't have to do anything to get in!!!

Also, for the word "liberal" to be used pejoratively the way that Bush and his cronies do is an egregious mis-use of the term. In fact, it's downright idiotic. "Liberal" and "conservative" are simply meant to denote two ends of a political spectrum. If "liberal" is a bad thing to be, then so is "conservative" since they're both extremes if you think about it.

By the way, Reagan was the fool who dumped a $2 trillion national debt on us.