Did Blu-ray score a goal in own net with BD+?

I'm one of those with the affected Samsung player. Extremely irritating that I get home and I'm excited to see that I received my copy of Fantastic Four: RotSS. I load it in the drive and it says loading for about a minute, then I get a big red screen telling me that I need a firmware update in order to play the movie. This SUCKS!. I pay almost $30 dollars for a movie that I can't watch.

So I go to Samsung's web page and the most recent firmware is from May. Hmm, I already loaded that back in May, so I apparently have the latest firmware. So I call Samsung tech support and they are clueless about the issue. The tell me to manually download the firmware and burn it to a cd. I tell them that I had downloaded it through the ethernet connection on the player and it says it's the same version. She says to try it manually. Well, I can't even get a download to complete from their site, the connection keeps dropping (their end, not mine).

Is this what we have to look forward to???? Needing a firmware update to get new titles to work??? What about companies that are notoriously slow with firmware releases? What happens with discontinued players a couple of years down the road?

[Post edited by khwiggins2 on Oct 3, 2007]

i feel your pain, i would feel the same way if it were me

Thanks for the comment. It looks like Blu-ray just took it a step to far.

Enough is Enough. One thing is that all special features are not compatible but the movie sure has to be.

We will follow the development and keep you posted. If others have other or similar experiences let us know and reply to this thread.

Bluray has been completely messed up since its inception. The bluray camp rushed to release players on the market because HD DVD was out first and they didn't want to be too far behind. Now look who's paying for it. The early adopters which are supposed to be the most important customers. You buy a new hi def movie and can't even watch it on your $1000+ bluray player. And people think bluray is great because??

I won't even buy a PS3 because it has a bluray player in it.

Thats why you go buy an HD DVD player. We all knew this would happen it was just a matter of time. I feel for you though and you are right you should be able to sit down and just watch your movies with no problems. And what about the people that are not computer savvy and can't burn firmware updates to a disc, did the companies think about that and not to mention not everyone has internet connection or high speed connection.

Will they accept returned disks under this scenario? Usually, retailers won't accpet returns on opened disks. If so, this situation is a begging for a class action lawsuit.

I cant play Fantastic four either This is annoying. I have both HDDVD and Bluray. I run them on a 1080p TV and cant see any difference. I will tell you one thing these Bluray "Glitchs" are getting stupid if you put out a product it should work..... Just my thoughts

where is johnson316? i'm wondering what lame BS he has to shovel with regards to the blu-ray camp selling discs that can't even be played because they were designed that way.

I was thinking the same thing. He's probably in some bluray forum talkin about how great it is to have 50GB disk capacity for all those interactive features...that don't work

interactive stuff on hd dvds and blu-ray discs are stupid anyway. the game on "300" hd dvd is really lame. there is lag time between the remote control and the player chip trying to process the battle. by the time the player accepts your commands, your army is already destroyed by the persians. (N)

as for "rise of the silver surfer"...i have zero interest in being either the silver surfer or galactus.

This is on IMDB.com today

Viacom Chief Calls For Greater Copyright Safeguards

Viacom CEO Philippe Dauman appeared to part ways with several other media executives -- including Apple's Steve Jobs and Les Moonves, his counterpart at corporate sibling CBS -- as he called for media companies to install more DRM safeguards and watermarks to combat piracy. Doing so, he said, "will usher in an unprecedented period of creative output across the globe." The techie website Techdirt commented that past efforts by media companies to force consumers to accept their current business model has only made the copyright problem worse. "Limiting what people can do and treating them like criminals diminishes value, rather than increases it," it said. Referring to Dauman's remarks, it concluded: "It's hard to craft a forward looking strategy for a rapidly changing market when your boss seems to have nearly all of his assumptions wrong."

Haven't these companies figured out yet that DRM just messes everything up? Ahem Sony rootkit. Just for kicks here's excerpt from an article of the first rootkit mess from Sony...

DRM this, Sony!

By Molly Wood, section editor, CNET.com
Thursday, November 3, 2005

Updated November 10, 2005

I hope this is the week that everyone in the world finds out what a root kit is. And I hope it's a week we look back on in amazement, as we consider just how far Sony was willing to go to criminalize consumers in its efforts to preserve control over its product. Because I believe this is the week that Sony effectively declared war on the consumer, announcing what most of us had already suspected: fair use is a joke in the movie and record industry, and the companies who control mass-market content will truly stop at nothing to protect their profits.

We're not gonna take it
But let me start at the beginning. On Monday, October 31, alert users discovered that Sony BMG is using copy-protected CDs to surreptitiously install its digital rights management technology onto PCs. You don't have to be ripping the CD, either--just playing it from your CD-ROM drive triggers the installation. The software installs itself as a root kit, which is a set of tools commonly used to make certain files and processes undetectable, and they're the favored tool of crackers who are, as Wikipedia puts it, attempting to "maintain access to a system for malicious purposes." In fact, root kits are often classified alongside Trojan horses. And Mark Russinovich, who created a root-kit detection utility and was one of the first to blog about the Sony intrusion, discovered another little gem when he tried to remove the DRM drivers. It broke his computer--disabling his CD drive.

So, let's make this a bit more explicit. You buy a CD. You put the CD into your PC in order to enjoy your music. Sony grabs this opportunity to sneak into your house like a virus and set up camp, and it leaves the backdoor open so that Sony or any other enterprising intruder can follow and have the run of the place. If you try to kick Sony out, it trashes the place.

And what does this software do once it's on your PC? It enacts unbelievably restrictive DRM, including possible incompatibility with computer CD-ROM players, DVD players, and car CD stereos. And in a deep-dive into the Sony end-user license agreement, the Electronic Frontier Foundation found some astonishing fine print. For example, if you lose the original CD or it's stolen, you lose the right to any digital copies you've made. You can't keep your music on computers at work. You must delete your songs if you move out of the country or if you file for bankruptcy. The list goes on and on. As for the artists whose names have been sullied by their association with the root kit, it seems that at least some of them didn't give permission to Sony to use the backdoor DRM technology and want no part of it.

thats nuts.

I appreciate you looking out for my well being, posters5. Fantastic Four 2, Halloween, Dracula and Day After Tomorrow all played exceptionally well on my stand alone player and my PS3. I couldn't speak for anyone else's technical difficulities. And I have to admit I only watched portions of FF2 and Tomorrow, but both of those BD's were flawless. In a related topic I see the Universal's big, end of the year release is going to be Timecop. WOW! I have to admit I'm impressed. Forget Jurassic Park or Jaws or even Back to the Future. Timecop. Because nothing says "buy me" to those day after Christmas consumers like Timecop. Yeah, if this doesn't indicate that Universal's catalog is beginning to run a little thin to those you who still own HD, then what will?

johnson316:

look at what universal is releasing on 11 december. that is the title that people will be buying as presents.

have you not seen the comparison screenshots on the internet? the blu-ray "dracula" looks atrocious.

eddie

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 3, 2007]

Which stand-alone player do you own?

Posters5, don't forget Robocop and The Fifth Element on bluray which weren't even as good as an upconverted DVD. They also had to be reissued.

falcon01:

oh, i didn't forget about those shoddy products...i'm just responding to johnson316's pride in owning one of the worst high-def discs ever. (Y)

eddie

Method Man: Live from the Sunset Strip is coming on 12/11. I don't judge. If that is something everyone is interested in owning then so be it.

and i own the bdps300 BD player

Thanks Johnson316 for confirming that FFour2 plays fine on the PS3 [which I own too], as I have this title in my Netflix rental acct.

What I'm curious to know, is IF the mandatory deadline for upgraded Blu-ray Java specs will be met my the manufacturers. As, did anyone hear the recent 10/1 news that the forthcoming Samsung Blu-ray players [including the "dual-format" HD player] are NOW CANCELLED/DELAYED? Did each fall victim to the continued problems with the mandatory requirement for the BD-Live feature?

Samsung Cancels BDP-2400 Blu-ray Player, Delays BD-UP5000 Dual-Format Player
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Dual-Format_Players/Samsung/Report:_Samsung_Cancels_BDP-2400_Blu-ray_Player,_Delays_BD-UP5000_Dual-Format_Player/1020

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy)

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Oct 3, 2007]

Isn't the BDPS300 Sony's stand-alone Blu-ray player? In any case, if it is, it's nice to know that their discs at least play on their own players.

John

i really don't get why manufacturers keep supporting blu-ray. the technology works best with sony hardware, especially the PS3. the PS3 is cheaper than all of the stand-alone blu-ray players, which means that people inclined to buy into blu-ray will probably give their money to sony rather than the other guys.

i wonder if BD+ also prevents people from watching "rise of the silver surfer" on uber-expensive pioneer elites? imagine paying $1000-plus only to be told by a $30 disc that you're out of luck. LOL.

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 3, 2007]

Johnson 316 wrote, "Forget Jurassic Park or Jaws or even Back to the Future. Timecop. Because nothing says "buy me" to those day after Christmas consumers like Timecop. Yeah, if this doesn't indicate that Universal's catalog is beginning to run a little thin to those you who still own HD, then what will?"

The bourne ultimatum is coming out december 11. That is the movie that posters was referring to. So too bad for you if you don't care about one of the best action/spy movies ever made. Fortunately, the millions of people who went to see it in theaters this summer world-wide won't have that same problem this Christmas. Who knows? We may even get lucky and see The Kingdom by this year's end as well.

[Post edited by chemteam on Oct 3, 2007]

I realize that many of us are not that interested in the "supplimental wonders" that have to use the Java software. However, when I have to wait 2 minutes and 20 seconds to see the opening screen of Fantastic Four :the Silver Surfer, it leaves me wondering what the big deal is. The same happens with both of the "Caribbean" movies. I am using the newest Sony player - which I do like (at least it does play my CDs!!) and it far surpasses the Samsung 1000 which I got in June of 2006... So far my library of 392 High Definition discs [240 HD-DVD and 130 Blu=ray] I have had 9 Blu-rays returned for not playing (the latest that totally froze up was "Dave Matthews ..at Radio City". Now that is with new BR player. Of the HD-DVD discs I had to return only one of that entire total for not playing correctly.
That camp has got to get their act together - they constantly change things in the middle and make new discs that need new players - and the upgrades are on disc and not easy to come by.
By the way, all that extra space they talk about is needed because they are using files that take much more space, and note that the "uncompressed PCM is often at 16 or 20 bits which is CD strength or slightly more..... and Mpeg 2 is a large file (Mpeg 4 much better, but VC1 even more compact for the same picture quality....
Who is fooling who?

This is from highdefdigest.com

"Calls placed to both Samsung and LG customer support revealed that both manufacturers are aware of the issue, and that both are working on firmware updates to correct it. Samsung promised a firmware update within "a couple" weeks, while LG said an update is expected in 3-4 days.'

It is great news that they are working on a upgrade. The point though is that they made a disc that requires a firmware upgrade to even play.

Some people just don't have the skills or Internet connection to install firmware upgrades. This means that they have to take their expensive hardware back to the store and wait for several weeks for a return. That, or wait for weeks on a disc from the manufacture and install that.

Now, that might work once a year to get the main updates but imagine that this needs to be done on a regular basis to keep up with hackers. This just don't work. My guess is that you will see a hacked BD+ disc on the Internet within weeks. DRM is simply not the right weapon to fight piracy. However, that is another discussion.

We will have to wait and see until Fox comes with a comment on what have been the specific cause of the error.

[Post edited by Henning on Oct 4, 2007]

Quote:
Some people just don't have the skills or Internet connection to install firmware upgrades.

If you're going to make that claim, then people aren't going to be smart enough to use the internet features on HD DVD discs, either. The ability to buy products they see in movies, for instance, that Universal is now touting would mean squat. Somehow I think three clicks on the remote to get the firmware upgrade is easier than entering credit card information or whatever else is required to buy Steve Carrell's shoes from Evan Almighty.

I will agree with the overall point that the disc should have been working from the get go. Some one/multiple some one's really dropped the ball on this. (Part of me thinks, though, that being an early adopter with a new piece of tech like BD+ this is part of the price we all pay.)

I agree with the special features. The solution? Just don't use them.

The main issue here is that the movie doesn't work.

Also, every time someone makes a new DRM system I get scared. What it basically means is that rights are taken away from the consumer and given to the company behind the content.

Instead of rewarding those who buy movies legally they make it more difficult and give them extra headaches. Not the right way to reward someone who have paid up-to $40 for a movie.

The music industry has finally learned this and are rolling out DRM free music like never before. Why? Because it makes it easier for the consumer and gives him choice which ultimately results in more sales.

Quote:
Instead of rewarding those who buy movies legally they make it more difficult and give them extra headaches. Not the right way to reward someone who have paid up-to $40 for a movie.

Now thats the truth. I dont copy or steal movies. But I am smart enuff to know that it dosent matter what these companies do they wont stop bootlegging. But it seems that the people that like tech are the once that suffer for for there new copy protection.

As for adopting the new tech I have both Hddvd and a Bluray player. As a consumer and a tech head Hdvd camp seems to have prepared better for there release than the Bluray camp.

Final thought: I think this battle will be won by people not on this fourm but with peoples pocket books. I beleive the first camp to get a player to the 150.00 mark will win. As it stands right now that is the HDdvd camp. I think if the sell alot of units this quater WB will stop being neutral. Just my thoughts

Henning,

Absolutely this is a problem because the movie can't be played. I'd never argue it's not. There were two options for Fox, assuming they knew about this before the disc hit the street.

1) Delay the BD release, thereby making BD fanbois upset and HD fanbois cheer in the street because Fox isn't actively supporting the format.

2) Release the disc and work with the player manufacturers to get a firmware update online as soon as possible.

There's a lot we still don't know about this release. When official word comes from Fox about what they did or did not know, I'll be more than happy to string them up, if deserved.

Jason

Considering how bad FF2 was maybe they're doing people a favor. LOL.

Jason your points are very valid. As for Fox knowing or not knowning if the disk would work or not dosent matter though. Right now the best thing for Fox and the Bluray camp is to not say anything and not draw attention to them selves. The Bluray camp has had to much negitive publicity in the last few weeks they dont need to add to it. The best thing that can happen is they get the firmware update out as fast as possible. Before the consumers get annoyed.

As for the extras is that what we are paying for correct me if I am wrong and someone probably will arent the old movies just being up scaled and put onto disk. The older films where not filmed in hd so with out the extras there is really nothing to justify the cost. You might as well by a dvd player that up converts to 1080p and by a standard DVD..

I am just curious to find more early adopters who are completely frustrated by the crap that Sony has sent our way. I bought a PS3 on launch, with promise of games and great movies. I have waited close to a year for any of these promises to come true, and now it just seems like my whole year was in vain. I bought the PS3 in hopes of supposed launch game Lair and 4 month away Heavenly Sword, as well as the advertisements showing Spiderman 1 & 2 on BD. I soon found out that HD-DVD LOOKED BETTER ON MY 133" SCREEN, due to Sony using the ancient Mpeg formatting, and when the games I wanted so badly were finally released in Sept, they were so disappointing (12 hrs of gameplay for H.S. and Lair - meh) that I have yet to own a single game. Now Sony continues to screw the early adopter, both on stand alones and on the PS3. Two price drops in one year? I owned a first gen LD, first gen DVD as well as a first gen SVHS and I have never felt so violated for being that support out of the gate. The early stand alones can't work with BD-J, firmware updates are lacking on anything other than PS3s and the latest debacle has only the PS3 able to handle yet another sony propietary BD+ security encryption mechanism for anti-piracy. This means the people who spent 1000+ are now sitting on drink coasters instead of BD players, as they won't even play BD+. This is nuts, but I would like to get an email chain started, hopefully followed by a website and maybe even some paid advertising against all this forceful, decietful propaganda that has left so many of us out to dry. You can email me at jahosive@yahoo.com. I will send out weekly updates letting people know how many have signed up, and actions that can be taken. I would also like to find others that are willing to help (my main reason for not already setting up a website). I am sick and tired of being lied to, and hopefully some others are too.

jackfrost,

I think in the interest of being completely up front with the consumers who already bought FF2 (or those who are thinking about it) is the best policy for Fox. A complete mea culpa, throwing themselves on the mercy of the court (of public opinion).

"Know what happened? We were excited about the BD+ ability for the disc and even though we noticed issues with it through the production process, we had been working with Samsung and LG (and whoever else) to put a firmware update together since the problem was found. We were assured by our partners the update would be ready ahead of the disc's street date. It wasn't. We either had the option of withholding the release until a later time or putting a disc with clear problems on the street. We decided to continue with the planned Fantastic Four launch and fix the problems as they came up."

If I'm not mistaken, this is the first BD+ disc on the market. As great as it would have been for everything to go smoothly, how much actually GOES smoothly with a new technology or versions of technology?

Jason

"The older films where not filmed in hd...." --Jackfrost

Well, in fairness, "older films" were filmed on film stock, and it isn't known as "high definition" as we use the term today. Older films (and most of today's films) were shot on photographic film, which when transferred into the digital domain take upwards of four or five thousand horizontal scan lines to do them justice (so today's digital "high definition" photograpahy, even the industry's new 2K standard, has quite a ways to go to capture all the purity of good, old-fashioned photographic film--which is why most filmmakers continue to use cameras with film stock rather than digital cameras).

Today, the term "high definition" can mean anything in the digital domain that uses at least 720 horizontal scan lines to reproduce. Therefore, "older films" are of a much higher resolution (when transferred to the digital domain) than newer digitally shot films, which are done at the mere 2K.

What is supposed to happen is that studios transfer their photographic films to masters at 4 - 5,000 lines and then downscale them to 1080 lines for HD DVD and Blu-ray and 480 lines for standard-def DVD.

At the moment, a few filmmakers are, indeed, shooting their movies digitally in HD (with digital rather than regular cameras using film stock), but, as I say, they are shooting at 2K, a resolution that still doesn't match good photographic film and that still needs to be downscaled to 1080 or 480 for home viewing.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on Oct 4, 2007]

JJ79:

The question here is. Why BD+?

Thank you, Henning, I did get us a little off subject.

But the question may not entirely be BD+. That's a matter for each studio to decide. The question is why Fox apparently didn't test out the new copy-protected discs on a variety of different players before releasing them to the public. I mean, it's not like there are hundreds of different BD players out there. There are a relative handful of Blu-ray players from just a few manufacturers.

When a computer programmer designs a program, he tries it out on a number of different combinations of equipment to be sure that it will play on the majority of home systems. Didn't Fox try out their test discs (check discs) on anything but Sony players to see if they would work?

John

Henning, if I understand right, why does FF2 need to have BD+ is the question.

I thought that's what Fox was waiting for: really good copy protection and the like. Without BD+, would they have ever gotten back into releasing on hi def?

Jason

It sounds like Fox probably doesn't want to release their properties except with BD+. They probably had some angst because it was part of the standard specs for so long without actually being supported by the players. There was some rumor that they were going to hold off on releasing the FF2 disks until the problems had been worked out (I assume that meant until the hardware folks sent out drivers).

My suspicion is that they became impatient when they realized that their revenue was at the mercy of R&D cycle of outside corporations. Given the alternative, they just released and let it be Samsung's problem. Or so they thought.

However, its Fox that gets as much of a black eye out of this as Samsung. I have seen websites that are just advising against buying Fox disks until this is sorted out. That has to drive them nuts. Especially since they were following "the rules" when they released the disk.

I wonder if they feel burned enough by this it makes them reevaluate their committment to the BD camp? (Probably not since they are so concerned about DRM -- HD DVD may not present a viable alternative in that regard).

I don't see why they can't just rely on good old fashioned prosecution when their copyrights are infringed upon!

We've sat through how many hours of our lives being forced to view that warning on standard DVDs...just have faith in the honest consumer and go after the dishonest ones with legal action. It's not that hard to figure out.

I've licensed every piece of software I have, and I've paid for all the music and movies I have. Why should I have to suffer because of Fox's paranioa? Oh wait a minute...I don't! I have an HD DVD player. )

Seriously...I'm not going to buy into the blu-ray thing, period. For many reason beyond this latest mess. It [still] just isn't a good thing.

danbala,

Have I missed the point again? Are you suggesting that Fox knew in advance their BD+ discs would not work with some BD players, but they went ahead and released them anyway, with no cautions or warnings?

John

John,

I think I might be at least partially responsible for that. It was a theory I threw out earlier in the thread. Every release goes through quality check. It's unbelievable to me that Fox didn't check this big release. Which led me to the two theories I mentioned above.

Someone else besides Fox dropped the ball here. Whether it was BDA or Samsung or LG or whatever, it takes two to tango.

Jason

very insteresting comments.

jason,

i think you completely missed the boat about henning's comments regarding people being savvy enough to download firmware updates via a player's internet connection or on a computer for burning.

you don't have to buy universal's online merchandise to be able to watch the hd dvd that you purchased. on the other hand, you might need a firmware update to watch a disc in blu-ray's case. the problem at hand is playing a disc, not buying other things.

eddie

SHOCKER! Bill Hunt at TheDigitalBits.com said something bad about Blu-ray:

"Toshiba, Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 owners can update their firmware right from the player with a broadband connection (a feature HD-DVD got right - something the Blu-ray manufacturers should adopt)."

Eddie,

I AGREE that a firmware upgrade shouldn't be needed to play the movie. Completely, utterly, without a doubt. It should work the first minute the disc is put into the player. (I have other issues with the FF2 disc, like the idea of a main menu...I got spoiled with Warner's Smallville S6 starting the first episode immediately.)

You're absolutely right: buying merchandise on Universal discs is not required to watch the movie. However, if people are dumb enough not to be able to do firmware updates, are they going to be smart enough to buy stuff? That's my only point. The interactivity is a feature HD DVD is touting to high heaven, like it's the be all and end all of features. It's not for 99% of the viewing audience.

Jason

So much for there beyond higher definition, hdna disks and players... It's just another cluster on everyone on the blu side trying to keep up with Toshiba's innovative platform for TRUE-HD, but that's what you get when you rush into something without being prepared with the proper support... Maybe next year, or the year after will sony's blu team be ready to play with the big boys... I just wonder how long will the studios be blinded by the ONSLAUGHT of sony's only true innovation, advertising, THX..:-}

are you guys serious ???? i know plenty of people who would go online with their HD player just cause...and look at extras, but would have no idea how to burn firmware to a disk.

some people just think of the Computer as an "alien". the minute you say Computer. they think "Complicated" ...and asume the worst before even attempting anything on it. even with step by step instructions. believe me I do IT support.

Kucoloco, I do IT support also. It amazes me how many people think turning off the monitor actually turns off the computer :p

it's getting to the point where hd dvd and blu-ray players are approximating computers. remember when some techies gutted the hd-a1 and hd-xa1? they found RAM and actual computer chips inside those machines.

John,

I am suggesting that they had to have a sense that BD+ was not totally compatible. It's part of the specs now but firmware hasn't been upgraded since it became standard, right? Since it was part of the spec, I'm sure they felt that they did their due diligence.

jason,

while the hd dvd online stuff can be used as a gimmick to get people to buy more things via online stores, at the very least this is not something that is hostile to consumers. i mean, you don't hear the blu-ray camp advertising, "our products have disc protection that won't let you play them!", do you? given their druthers, the blu-ray companies probably want as few consumers as possible to know about BD+.

eddie

[Post edited by posters5 on Oct 5, 2007]

Eddie,

I don't know of any company who would market to the mass consumer and use "copy protection" was a reason their format was superior. And if there was one, let's just say

Jason

Eddie here's the video you were talking about...

http://geekswithblogs.net/lorint/archive/2006/04/21/75795.aspx

Just click on "Click to see the 6 minute video of us taking apart the HD-A1!"

I hope the link works.

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Oct 5, 2007]