Re: 90,000 HD DVD players sold in one weekend

how about the $1000 samsung first-gen that is locked out of playing blu-ray discs? who cares about 1080p if you can't even play the damn disc?

Wow did this thread get crazy after I checked it this morning LOL. Well I wasn't going to say anything but here's my two cents.

As far as the PS3 goes at the end of the day it's a game machine and at the end of the day if it can't compete in that market then it's ability to play Blu-Ray movies won't matter. Yes the PS3 has something like 1.7 million units in people's homes but this is almost one quarter of what Sony expected to sell. I've been selling electronics since I was in high school and I've been around and I've been around some of the worst console launches in recent memory 3DO, Saturn, Dreamcast etc. Now I'm not saying my own personal experience is indicative of the entire USA but the PS3 does not sell. I've had four sitting at the store I work at and three of them are from LAUNCH. Meanwhile the Wii we can't keep in stock. We literally sell everyone we get within 48 hours. I would say for every 20 people I get asking about the Wii I get maybe one person asking about the PS3 and most people when they look at the price and the game selection decide to get an Xbox 360 instead.

Look I'm not a Sony basher I own a PS1 and a PS2. I just haven't been that impressed with Blu-Ray and the price of the PS3 put me off. I just feel Blu-Ray is an incomplete format. On paper it should blow HD-DVD away and it doesn't.

At the store I work it we set up side by side the latest Sony Blu-Ray player on a 1080P Bravia TV next to the A2 on a 1080P Toshiba RegzaLCD. We ran both TV's through Digital Video Essentials and then we played the Blu-Ray edition of Superman Returns next to the HD-DVD edition. Hands down most people preferred the HD-DVD edition. In case you're wondering we did nothing to influence people we time synced both players so it looked like the movie was one loop being played through both TV's. The only price tags were those on the TV's and neither was marked as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

For those who arugue that the Playstation 3 will propel Blu-Ray past HD-DVD, think about this: Playstation 3 has sold 3.7 million or so units. Blu-Ray sold about 2.6 million discs in the first 9 months of this year. That's less than 1 Blu-Ray movie for every PS3 sold (this is not taking into account stand alone Blu Ray players). It means PS3 owners are averaging less than one BluRay purchase for nearly a whole year. PS3 will push games (maybe), not Blu-Ray.

@bubblebathgirl:

Here's some stats/facts for ya to take a look at.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/833/833429p1.html

You can choose to believe if Sony's numbers are sold to consumers rather than to retailers if you want, but everyone else knows it's quite the contrary. It's most likely the case with all 3 companies. The PS3 shouldn't be considered 100% into the console war. 60% of PS3 owners don't even know what HD and Blu-Ray movies are.

http://www.qj.net/60-of-PS3-owners-ask-what-s-Blu-ray-/pg/49/aid/99605

Of the 40% who know what Blu-Ray is, how many of them even use it? It's just something to think about when everyone rushes in and says "b-b-but but TEH PS3!1!"

As for Disney pushing a new HD format... I don't think so myself. Cartoons in HD aren't much different than cartoons in an upconverted SD-DVD player. The 3D movies do look better, but still then it comes down to price. Why buy the best possible picture of a kids movie when a kid would watch it on a 2.5" screen if you sat it in front of them? A kid doesn't know or care what Blu-Ray is.. but they know what a DVD is and will ask for that for X-mas. What prepubescent PS3 fanboy/owner is gonna ask for a kiddie disney cartoon like Lion King or something (just an example) on Blu-Ray?

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[Post edited by Cellien on Nov 7, 2007]

MattPayne, always nice to hear some level headed comments from you!

dguisinger, provide a link to support your claim that HD DVD can easily overtake Blu-ray, I have seen no proof to such a fact. All I have seen are links that show Blu-ray maintaining a 2:1 lead (see Yahoo News from Oct 23, 2007: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071023/tc_nm/bluray_hddvd_dc) over HD DVD. The fact that HD DVD had to pay off Paramount to switch is pathetic ... sure it's business as usual, but IMO it shows that HD DVD is weak. Furthermore, HD DVD still has far less studios supporting it, more then twice the exclusive studios: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/studios.php. I also love how you rationalize why HD DVD isn't selling better ... could it be because people are buying Blu-ray instead? LOL! You say wait until '08, sure! Check back the stats then and see Blu-ray with an even greater margin of lead! I also love how you list your "qualifications" like anyone believes you or really cares ... people want to see proof ... or evidence ... SHOW US THE LINKS. As for your comments on the PS3, show evidence to support what you say. You think PS3 has no effect on the format war? LOL, check this link from Sept 8. 07: http://ps3.qj.net/Blu-Ray-to-boost-PS3-sales-says-new-study/pg/49/aid/101994 - the Blu-ray drive has a direct selling point for the PS3 and effect on sales. You continue to state oppinions with ZERO facts to back them up, it just makes this that much easier for me so thanks!

xplaytendo, glad you agree that it holds more data, cause it does: http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/10/09/hitachi-working-on-100gb-blu-ray-discs/. Holding more data means you can have more features, more movie, and less need for swapping discs like HD DVD which has a much smaller current size and size potential compared to Blu-ray. Furthermore, you speak of the future based on zero facts ... provide any reference that supports your claims ... you can't speak of average consumers as a whole without providing stats. Also, the PS3 is already closing the gab on the WII, especially in Japan, see the 1up.com article from Nov 2, 2007: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164123 ... where Wii had a 6:1 or higher advantage, it only has a 2:1 now ... this is definitely something XBOX 360 can't say. Blu-ray simply has more cards to play then HD DVD. HD DVD doesn't have a console to help drive it's sales, that's why they are forced to lower their prices to compete. Blu-ray doesn't need to lower their console prices as much since Blu-ray is still much more popular. Blu-ray can still lower it's standalone players if they want to further their advantage, but if they don't need to then why would they since their making more money this way as it is. Now that HD DVD is practically giving away their players ... what else can they do to narrow the Blu-ray advantage?

Thaek - I have a 1080p LCD from Samsung "The official HD TV of the NFL" and yes I do notice the difference substantially between 1080i and 1080p ... 720p already looks much better then 1080i. I've played 1080p games on the PS3 and watched 1080p movies and they look clearly better then 1080i and even 720p.

MattPayne - great point again about the PS3s for XMAX. As sony has lowered their PS3 price to $399, IMO that will result in a huge boost this holiday season.

dguisinger - you don't represent this forum and thus can not honestly speak of the "attitude around here". Their is no disputing that the PS3 is better and newer technology then the 360. See this gampro article from August 7, 2007: http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=116728 - PS3 is "immensely powerful" and "superior performance". Sure learning a new technology has a curve to it, but it's a good investment which will give developers more power to move forward with. Ultimately, people want progress, that is what the PS3 is. The 360 is old underpowered technology, developers already see it as such.

xplaytendo - You're just wrong. You can't speak of the average consumer without providing facts. The average consumer is one that shops at Amazon.com right? According to the Amazon stats the average consumer buys twice as much Blu-ray as HD DVD: [urlhttp://www.blu-raystats.com/percentages.php[/url] I know it must be hard for you to understand why someone would spend more for something that is better but that's exactly what has been happening according to the statistics.

John J. Puccio - provide a link to what you are claiming please. You state a lot of things without backing them up with any links. Like I said above, 720p is much better then 1080i ... I've watch HD Pro Football on a channel that was 1080i, then switched to a 720p one, and saw the vast improvement. Switching then to a 1080p game or 1080p Blu-ray movie is then even better then the 720p. 1080p > 720p > 1080i.

Movielover316 - I believe none of your claims without seeing evidence to support them.

vietduckboi - Blu-ray is ALREADY twice past HD DVD. The PS3 has sold over 5.5 million http://vgchartz.com/. If you are claiming another number then prove it with a link.



Please don't waste everyone's time here by making claims without supporting them with proof in the way of images or links. The reason this thread has gotten so out of hand is because HD DVD supporters who are "losing" can't come up with any proof or logical arguments so they write emotionally. If you have a valid point to make then you need to be able to back it up with proof, otherwise, no one will believe you and it will be easy to counter your claims with some simple links.

So to summarize, currently Blu-ray is outselling HD DVD 2:1 (http://www.blu-raystats.com/percentages.php

Blu-ray has more then twice the studio support (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/studios.php)

Blu-ray has the PS3 to drive it's sales (http://ps3.qj.net/Blu-Ray-to-boost-PS3-sales-says-new-study/pg/49/aid/101994)

"Read the full, frank interview with the Blu-ray chairman" from Oct 5, 2007 here: http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/high-definition/features/blu-ray-will-win-war-with-hd-dvd

... lastly (for now) IMO, one of the biggest deciding factors in this war will be ... our kids ... Disney is exclusively backing Blu-ray ... Disney makes kids movies ... how will parents buy HD DVD movies for their kids if Disney only backs Blu-ray?

... oh, and try saying "HD DVD" quickly 5 times ... I bet you can't ... heck I bet u can't even 3 times fast ... that's another thing you've probably not considered

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[Post edited by bubblebathgirl on Nov 7, 2007]

Wow, last time I posted here this afternoon, the thread was 3 pages, now it's 12

BluCanada, this is a rebuttal of your misunderstanding of my post, in which I said...

Quote:
Hendrix: "With a good hi-def player and/or TV display processing chip, 1080p will not look any better than 1080i (except during some scenes of vary fast-moving images) - and most people cannot tell the difference with the naked eye."

And then BluCanda said -

Quote:
"Listen, the flicker between p an i is horrible different during static, NON MOVING images, which is contrary to what Hendrix said. P an I will look similar during motion, but not during slow moving static scenes."

You obviously don't understand my point about 1080i, because you fail to say that 1080i is then converted to the native progressive signal-resolution of the TV display (720p or 1080p, unless you have one of those weird Hitachi native-1080i plasmas).

As for my note of a native-1080i signal being not as good during fast-moving images (as 1080p or even 720p), here is a quote from Wikipedia, supporting what I said...

PROBLEMS CAUSED BY INTERLACING
Interlaced video is designed to be captured, transmitted or stored and displayed in the same interlaced format. Because each frame of interlaced video is composed of two fields that are captured at different moments in time, interlaced video frames will exhibit motion artifacts if the recorded objects are moving fast enough to be in different positions when each individual field is captured. These artifacts may be more visible when interlaced video is displayed at a slower speed than it was captured or when still frames are presented.

To minimize the artifacts caused by interlaced video display on a progressive scan monitor, a process called deinterlacing can be utilized. This process is not perfect, and it generally results in a lower resolution, particularly in areas with objects in motion. Deinterlacing systems are integrated into progressive scan television displays in order to provide the best possible picture quality for interlaced video signals.

See, again my point is this. A 1080i interlaced signal is perfectly fine IF-IF-IF either the disc player and/or TV display has a good processing chip that deinterlaces the native interlaced signal, and then scales in progressive, either 720p or 1080p.

If not done properly, the interlaced signal will suffer from artifacts, especially noticeable on fast-moving images. And this is because an interlaced 1080i signal is processed with half the resolution (540 lines) ALTERNATELY with the other 540 lines, at this is done 60 times per second. With a good processing chip, it can look GREAT ON STATIC IMAGES, or images with little or no motion. However, for fast-moving images, an interlaced signal will show some artifacts (because of the alternately-processing 540, 540, etc), but this is minimized with conversion to a progressive-scanned signal (no longer 540-alternately-540, but now either 720p or 1080p), and in fast scenes the 720p or 1080p progressive signal is definitely superior.

So you may say... "but what about the HD-DVD player's 1080i output - see, it's not progressive and will show artifacts"... Well, it's possible, but many TV displays today have premium processing chips to properly deinterlace the 1080i signal. AND, you can also have your HD DVD player convert the native 1080i signal to 720p - and while you may feel 720p is "lower resolution", it's still a high-def conversion of the 1080i output of the player, and if sitting 7-8 feet or more away from your TV you won't be able to see a difference between 720p and 1080p (unless the screen is 60 inches or larger).

In fact, many 720p plasmas have images that look superior to LCDs that have 1080p resolution (for a variety of reasons, including the higher contrast ratio and deeper blacks of the plasma), so whether you have 1080p or 1080i/720p the image quality all depends on how well the signal processing is done within the player and/or TV display.

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy)

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[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Nov 7, 2007]

Cellien - thanks for posting that link. Not sure how reliable that eMarketer site is, however, the proportions of the sales seems somewhat on par www.vgchartz.com.

However, this old article from May 16, 2007 (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/features/36-million-ps3s-sold-sony-profit-falls-68percent/70420/) seems to say the 3.6 million PS3s were sold at that time (5.5 million shipped).

I think we'll need a more authoritative source then eMarketer before believing it's report.

Also, what about the 360 30%+ failure rate? (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php)? vs the PS3 failure rate of Less Than 1 Percent (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136054-pg,1/article.html)?

I think that just shows what kind of product M$ producers ... I mean look at Windows Vista. LOL!

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[Post edited by bubblebathgirl on Nov 7, 2007]

Thanks Cellien,

We all knew that, but without links bubbles wouldn't shut her trap. She spews maybe 20 links a message, constantly repeating links as if they actually make her look important. I'm rather new to this forum myself, but I haven't been combative until having to deal with her nazi style propaganda war she's brought here today. I dont beleive she ever posted before the 90,000 unit article hit - i have the feeling she's on the Bluray payroll... because there is a certain amount of lies on both sides that can be spread by ignorance, but "she" if she is a she, continues to accuse everyone of making up facts and constantly spews forth the same mistruths over and over.

So hey, you guys hear HD DVD sold 90,000 players this past weekend? Good news for the HD folks huh? There, see, we can get back on topic if bubbles goes away

Quote:
I just feel Blu-Ray is an incomplete format. On paper it should blow HD-DVD away and it doesn't.

At the store I work it we set up side by side the latest Sony Blu-Ray player on a 1080P Bravia TV next to the A2 on a 1080P Toshiba RegzaLCD. We ran both TV's through Digital Video Essentials and then we played the Blu-Ray edition of Superman Returns next to the HD-DVD edition. Hands down most people preferred the HD-DVD edition. In case you're wondering we did nothing to influence people we time synced both players so it looked like the movie was one loop being played through both TV's. The only price tags were those on the TV's and neither was marked as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

thats what would happen if they were equally advertised everywhere. and for those new kids that came from the other forum to pollute ours...and want facts for something that has been discussed 2345 times. here is my fact.

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[Post edited by kucoloco on Nov 7, 2007]

dguisinger, you seem angry. You are also not giving anyone here any useful facts, so please try to provide information that can actually be verified ... cause most of what you say seems very hateful and offensive.