Independence Day on Blu-ray delayed

Henning,

Since they delayed it til March, do you think that they could possibly sneak some profile 1.1 features since this is a good choice of movie for HD playback or is the disk features finalized and they will stick with fixing the playback issues with players?

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[Post edited by tony1569 on Dec 2, 2007]

Along with this news, I read on highdefdigest's site yesterday that Disney will be offering a "disc exchange" program for PIRATES/CARRIBEAN #1 in the coming months. That was the Blu-ray release (from May) that had a brief 9-minute segment where the framing/cropping of the image was not done correctly, with a few shots where a character's head is a little cut-off [camera pans].

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy) DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray owner

I wonder what the "minor glitch" was.

if that "heads cut off" issue happened to a movie i really really liked, i would have been a very pissed blu guy

I know the cut off heads and altered framing of the entire 109 minutes of the Top Gun HD DVD made me a slightly pissed of purple guy. And Paramount's response? Silence. At least it wasn't one of my favorite movies. But what Universal did to Tremors really pissed me off - a full 95 minutes of digital EE artifacts that not a single scene escaped from. And Universal's response so far? Silence.

You have to give Disney credit that they're willing to admit a mistake, even if it applies to a single scene, and swallow the huge cost of re-releasing the movie with a free exchange program. Sony was kind enough to do the same with the The Fifth Element because of softness. It pisses me off that studios like Paramount and Universal on the other hand just think the consumer will double-dip in a few years when they release a "remastered" version of their problem titles. Perhaps because they still consider us "early adopters" and that we represent such a small proportion of the whole media market share, they just don't care. I'm glad that at least Disney and Sony seem to care about us little guys when it comes to correcting mistakes that impact such a small proportion of the market.

And as a purple guy, I was a little disappointed that Independence Day was being delayed by Fox, but I'd rather see it done right rather than disappointing even 5% of Blu-ray owners. At least the delay will help my pocketbook, since I had also planned to pick up Cast Away for me, and Mr. & Mrs. Smith for the wifie. Luckily nothing out on HD DVD this week or I'd be broke.

You guys can say what you want about SONY but they knew that the had a dud on their hands with the Fifth Element, but they remastered it and gave it to any one who bought the first one for free.

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[Post edited by tony1569 on Dec 3, 2007]

Tony I agree. They realized it was crap and gave the costumers a replacement which was a vast improvement. Problem solved.

My only problem with these studios (for both formats) is why release this crap and call it "hidef"? Bluray did it with Robocop, Fifth Element. Pirates, etc...HD DVD does it with Tremors and from what Skyhawk is reporting Top Gun, maybe other also?

Don't they check these out before replicating them? Yes it's great when they replace it with a good copy but it's annoying. Especially when you purchase it on hdef, go home and get the popcorn out to watch the movie only to have the whole thing ruined with a crappy transfer.

Relax Sony1569.. they were actually saying something positive abotu sony replacing it dude.

Falcon i'm not crazy about most of those movies. except for maybe 5th element. i have not seen tremors though.

I wish Sony would replace my "House of Flying Daggers" with a newly mastered Blu-ray that did it justice

Like with standard DVD, both HD DVD and Blu-ray have a lot of duds with their earliest efforts. They have gotten better over time - just not consistently. Although I know the source has much to do with transfer quality, IMO neither format should be rushing to release catalog titles out without cleaning up the source and retelecining the masters. Then fix it up frame-by-frame if need be. Sure it cost money - so delay the specific release until the market size makes it worthwhile. I can't remember the movie now (or if it were HD DVD or Blu-ray), but I even saw an eyelash on a frame once while watching a title. Come on, there is no excuse for that.

Falcoln01 said -

Quote:
"My only problem with these studios (for both formats) is why release this crap and call it "hidef"? Bluray did it with Robocop, Fifth Element. Pirates, etc..."

Well, seriously the PIRATES movies don't look like "crap", even with the small/brief glitch in the first movie. Most people didn't even notice the cropping on the panning shots (during the 9-minute segment), until AFTER it was pointed out on newsgroups and highdefdigest.com. Both PIRATES Blu-rays look and sound fantastic, and have received recommendations on the various online reviews. Still, once Disney offers the exchange, those of us who have the movie will want to exchange it for a "perfectly"-mastered copy.

As for HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS, the PCM soundtracks is incredible, but the video mastering, although in high-def, it is much too soft, and this is one disc that because of it's poor video mastering, WOULD benefit from added edge enhancement (ironically). As it is, I watch my copy and INCREASE the sharpness (just for this title), so as to make it look the best. Still, Sony ought to replace/exchange it too, like they did 5th Element.

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy) DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray owner

"I know the cut off heads and altered framing of the entire 109 minutes of the Top Gun HD DVD made me a slightly pissed of purple guy. And Paramount's response? Silence." --Skyhawk

Skyhawk,

Could you provide a link to a reliable source for this information? I reviewed the HD DVD of "Top Gun" and saw no such framing problems, but, then, I did not have the original print with which to compare it.

I did, however, just now take a look at other HD DVD reviews of "Top Gun," and none of the major sites mention any such framing problem: Not DVD Review, Monsters and Critics, High-Def Digest, Home Theater Spot, Home Theater Forum, Movie Freak.com, DVD Verdict, DVD File, or DVD Beaver. Nor has anyone mentioned the problem at the AVS Forums, which is where there would certainly have been outrage at such a thing.

What's more, a friend of mine with connections in the disc replication business tells me that the standard-definition and high-definition versions of "Top Gun" share the same master, yet I cannot find any reviews of the most-recent SD version that mention a framing problem, either, and that includes our own DVD review by Hock Guan Teh.

So, if you could tell us where you got your information, I'd appreciate it. On the other hand, if it's simply a personal observation, you might want to say that, too.

John

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[Post edited by John J. Puccio on Dec 3, 2007]

Hi John,

None of the reviewers noticed any framing issues in POTC either. The Top Gun framing issue was uncovered on the same forum as POTC's was - the AVSForum. Unfortunately we don't know whether Top Gun HD DVD represents the director's intent or not since with Super 35 it was framed differently with even different aspect ratios on 3 different SD DVD releases! I'm guessing the "right" one is the one without any heads cut off.

I believe Xylon posted as few screen captures somewhere on the forum of Top Gun's problematic scenes, the same way he posted shots of the POTC scene and eventually got the studios and reviewers attention. There was discussion of it on more than one thread.

Concerning the master for Top Gun, it was filmed in Super 35 meaning the master negative is close to Academy aspect ratio. It was even shown in two different aspect ratios in the theaters 2.20 : 1 and 2.35 : 1. I suspect your friend might be mistaking this film for another.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/technical

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 3, 2007]

John said -

Quote:
"So, if you could tell us where you got your information, I'd appreciate it. On the other hand, if it's simply a personal observation, you might want to say that, too."

Yeah, I'm thinking that it's more inclined to be his personal observation, and here's why... director TONY SCOTT (Ridley's brother).

Tony's style of directing is very unique as to framing, especially of close-ups. Tony always 'pushes' his close-ups as tight as possible, and will often keep much of an actor's hair out of the shot!

You can view the extreme close-ups and tight framing shots in many of his movies, such as TOP GUN, REVENGE, TRUE ROMANCE, ENEMY OF THE STATE, CRIMSON TIDE, THE LAST BOY SCOUT, THE HUNGER, THE FAN etc.

It's really noticeable when viewing BEVERLY HILLS COP [directed by Martin Brest], and it's sequel BEVERLY HILLS COP 2 [directed by Tony], where his trademark tight close-ups are more obvious than those in Martin's directing.

So, I'm thinking Skyhawk might be thinking some of the picture has been "cropped" off, because of these tight close-ups.

Well, that's just my opinion.

Edit: I see from Skyhawk's above reply, that he feels it's a technical problem with the mastering. Would like to know more. I have the SpEd standard DVD ($10), and am not interested in an HD-DVD upgrade, because of the "bare bones" edition released by Paramount, compared to the deluxe SD DVD.

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy)
~ DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray owner ~

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[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Dec 3, 2007]

Skyhawk,

Again, I would ask you to please provide a link or two to confirm your assertion. It's a pretty serious criticism you're leveling against a transfer that virtually no one else has taken issue with.

Yes, Paramount has released "Top Gun" on tape and disc in various aspect ratios, including non-anamorphic, which does not prove which one is "correct." Anyway, I cannot find the AVS post to which you allude. And how did this one anonymous poster at AVS know that the framing on "Top Gun" was all wrong on the latest editions? Was it simply his opinion? Did he compare screen shots with the original print as shown in theaters, or did he compare screen shots from the various other tape and DVD releases, which, as I say, proves nothing?

As to my friend confusing this film with some other film, no, he's not. Paramount made both of the latest SD and HD DVD transfers from the same high-defintion master. Meaning that reviewers of either the latest SD or HD DVD versions would be able to notice any framing problems. They haven't.

John

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[Post edited by John J. Puccio on Dec 3, 2007]

Well, I did notice the following INFO on IMDB...

"The widescreen VHS version released in 1996 had an aspect ratio of 1.85:1. The theatrical prints and the DVD version released in 2004 have an aspect ratio of 2.35:1."

I wonder if this might be related to the thoughts concerning the HD-DVD mastering, and comments about "cropped" off images.

-Love Hendrix! (The Loverboy)
~ DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-ray owner ~

Skyhawk,

I finally found the old thread you alluded to at AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916912

It's a bunch of guys comparing the various previous LCD and DVD incarnations of the movie to the new SD and HD DVD versions and arguing about which one is "right." The only person with any credibility here is CamMan, a cinematographer with experience in actually filmming the movie. He says several times that the framing in the new versions looks perfect to him. Other posters are just miffed that the director chose to cut off a few hairlines here and there with his tight closeups. Well, it is his movie.

John

John, yes I agree that ALL various aspect ratios and framing attempts were made from the original Super 35 master. But this has nothing to do with framing and aspect ratios. Framing is done *from* the master to come out with a "print". If this movie was ever released in the OAR of the "master", all various versions would be closer to 4x3 and fill your standard TV rather well.

One thread on AVSForum can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916912

There used to be comparison DVD to HD DVD screen shots in this thread also, but they seem to have been removed now which is too bad. The comparison screen shots referenced by this quote were very interesting:

Quote:
In my example screenshots above, why would you want to show Cruise pumping his fist at the passing jet if you couldn't even see his fist? The presentation at 2.0:1 corrects that. There are several examples such as this throughout the film.

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 3, 2007]

Skyhawk,

Sorry, but a few guys at AVS who have no proof to offer for their claims beyond the fact that they don't happen to like it and are, in fact, countered by even more guys on the other side of the argument is not proof of anything "wrong" with the current framing on "Top Gun." Reviewers haven't mentioned any framing issue because it is not a problem worth mentioning. And the studio has been silent because there is nothing more to say. These latest releases of "Top Gun" are the ones the director has signed off on. End of story.

John

What's this? Skyhawk is spreading FUD? Isn't this the same Skyhawk that accused me of spreading FUD about the PS3 a few weeks ago? I must say, he wasn't very friendly about it, either! And here he is with his pants caught down spreading FUD over Top Gun! I love it!!!

Ah, sometimes Karma is the sweetest revenge of all.

Yes, I suppose it's possible that all the various aspect ratios and framing techniques used for the various theatrical and DVD releases of Top Gun just means the director kept on changing his mind. I just wished they moved the frame up in many scenes. Again, what's the point of showing Cruise shaking his fist if they don't actually show the fist in some versions? Well at least I know the "grain" in the movie 300 was the director's intent because it's present in all releases (theatrical, DVD, HDM).

Apart from Spielberg and Lucas, I sometimes wonder just how much involvement directors have in the re-re-release of a studio's 20 to 30 year old catalogue titles.

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 3, 2007]

Quote:
What's this? Skyhawk is spreading FUD?

Tim, if you can take time away from trolling, you're more than welcome to join in on the discussion

Quote:
Tim, if you can take time away from trolling, you're more than welcome to join in on the discussion

No thanks, I've had all the FUD I can handle for one day.

Falcon,

LMAO!!!!

Isn't image search a blast?

Tim

I honestly thought of you when I posted. I knew if anyone would appreciate it, it would be Tim

I'm glad someone called Skyhawk on that before I did, someone who would know far more about it than I would. All I saw was "my HD-DVDs were not good but my Blu Rays are always perfect" and knew the best was to ignore it. I'm sure if it was an actual issue, Paramount would have said something. As for the Universal EE issue..who knows why that is. Its not good, but it may have been unavoidable, too. I would love an explaination for it with someone who could have a credible insight for it.

Oh well.

JServo trolls:

Quote:
All I saw was "my HD-DVDs were not good but my Blu Rays are always perfect" and knew the best was to ignore it.

Please show me where I said "my HD DVDs were not good".

Please show me where I said "my Blu-rays are always perfect."

Since I never even suggested such a thing (I even criticized my Blu-ray transfers), it's rather obvious that you do suffer from the radicalization effect I mentioned in another thread that makes people perceive a reality that doesn't exist. Either that or you lie simply to further some unknown radical agenda.

If you're going to quote me, don't make every word up. Use the "Quote" feature here with copy/paste. I'd rather you even quote me out of context to further your agenda than simply quote things attributed to me I never said a single word of. Thanks.

And as far as excessive EE is concerned, the over application of digital sharpening of video is always avoidable. BTW, I watched another movie tonight with excessive EE leading to some rather noticeable ringing in a few scenes - Water World. Luckily it wasn't half as bad as Tremors though, and is mainly confined to the sails against the sky in the scenes where it occurs.

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 3, 2007]

"...the over application of digital sharpening of video is always avoidable." --Skyhawk

Very true. And when it's excessive, it looks awful. But as I mentioned earlier, directors sometimes add edge enhancement on purpose in their original prints, and sometimes the halos people see are the result of their own TV sets being set too sharp. Remember that first thing any television calibration guide tells you to do is turn the sharpness control way down or off. Turned off is actually the purest setting, any increase in the sharpness control being an alteration of the original image on the screen.

Here's an example I used before: the HD DVD and Blu-ray editions of "2001." Look very closely at certain shots, and you will see halos around the objects. But unless your sharpness control is turned up too high, these halos are not noticeable at normal viewing distances.

John

I know the cut off heads and altered framing of the entire 109 minutes of the Top Gun HD DVD made me a slightly pissed of purple guy. And Paramount's response? Silence. At least it wasn't one of my favorite movies. But what Universal did to Tremors really pissed me off - a full 95 minutes of digital EE artifacts that not a single scene escaped from. And Universal's response so far? Silence.

You have to give Disney credit that they're willing to admit a mistake, even if it applies to a single scene, and swallow the huge cost of re-releasing the movie with a free exchange program. Sony was kind enough to do the same with the The Fifth Element because of softness. It pisses me off that studios like Paramount and Universal on the other hand just think the consumer will double-dip in a few years when they release a "remastered" version of their problem titles. Perhaps because they still consider us "early adopters" and that we represent such a small proportion of the whole media market share, they just don't care. I'm glad that at least Disney and Sony seem to care about us little guys when it comes to correcting mistakes that impact such a small proportion of the market.
*********************
Well, gee, Skyhawk...seems you have issues with studios that are convieniently HD exclusive, but BRD studios never do such things. You can mask it however you want, but you insinuate that HD has issues that BRD does not.

Maybe you have some kind of comprehension problem. Or you're just a douchebag. Either way, I think you're pretty pathetic and tire of your "holier than thou" attitude.

JServo and others,

Could you refrain from name-calling.

If you disagree with someone, present your side of the argument. We're all in this format war together, and no matter which side we're on, it's the short end of the stick because Sony's and Toshiba's greed has screwed all of us. So, keep your cool. Thanks.

John

Skyhawk, watch out when your gone I maybe next.

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[Post edited by tony1569 on Dec 4, 2007]

JServo, thank you. Being selective in your quotes to further your agenda is much better than outright lying.

But you forgot to quote this, which I also said in this thread:

Quote:
I wish Sony would replace my "House of Flying Daggers" with a newly mastered Blu-ray that did it justice. Like with standard DVD, both HD DVD and Blu-ray have a lot of duds with their earliest efforts.

JServo says:

Quote:
Maybe you have some kind of comprehension problem. Or you're just a douchebag. Either way, I think you're pretty pathetic and tire of your "holier than thou" attitude.

"Teach not thy lip such scorn, for it was made For kissing, lady, not for such contempt."
- William Shakespeare

He says it better than I ever could.

Quote:
sometimes the halos people see are the result of their own TV sets being set too sharp. Remember that first thing any television calibration guide tells you to do is turn the sharpness control way down or off. Turned off is actually the purest setting, any increase in the sharpness control being an alteration of the original image on the screen.

Very true. I've always believed that adding "information" not present in the source material by applying processing at your display is called an "artifact". Not only can the sharpness setting on a display increase the halo effect (or add it if not present), it can introduce noise in the image or exacerbate film grain/noise already present in the source material.

Trying to get this thread back on track. Does anyone know what the problem was? I'm assuming it was another BD+ issue like with Silver Surfer.

keep it goign ugys, its boring at work.

I believe they have fixed the BD+ issues with the firmware updates. It could be anything, literally anything.