Onkyo TX-SR805: Review of HD audio

Speaking of running things correctly. If the HD-XA2 was available during the initial review of the 805, Henning could have output PCM through HDMI from the player when selecting either the Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD soundtrack (all HD-DVD players can decode these internally and output as PCM). It was not necessary to wait for the bitstreaming capability of the XA2's latest firmware in order to hear the HD audio referenced.

The point was that we wanted to test the decoder of the Onkyo unit. The only way to do this was to wait for the update.

It is correct that we could have used the decoder in the player but that would not give us a sense of the true capabilities of the receiver.

[Post edited by Henning on Dec 19, 2007]

I think too many people are confused by True HD and LPCM. There seems to be a general consensus that your audio quality will somehow be better if you decode the True HD audio at the receiver through a bitstream rather than using LPCM to my knowledge this is not the case. If you use the Toshiba HD DVD player to decode the True HD signal and output over LPCM to your receiver your audio quality should be the same as the reciever decoding the signal. All you are really doing is decompressing the file, you are left with the exact same one's and zero's either way no? It's like having a zip file that you are de-compressing.
I think people just like to see the True HD lit up on the front of their amp, gives them a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Dec 19, 2007]

Whether DD+/TrueHD is decoded in the player or in the receiver, you are still using the receiver's "qualities" (ie. DAC's) to get the sound to your speakers. Remember that only if you output from the multichannel analog out to the receiver do you bypass most of the receiver's processing. By bitstreaming from the XA2 to the 805, you are only adding the additional work of decoding the codec in the receiver, which should be identical whether it's done in the player or in the receiver. The final product after decoding is PCM and what the receiver does with that will separate the 805 from the more lowly 605, for instance.

Shaddai you and I are saying the same thing....the decoding makes no difference whether it is done in player or receiver, the result is identical. You are correct that the quality of the receiver comes in to play once it is dealing with the LPCM signal.

Bosshog7, I think you are absolutely right. So many people are so hung up on getting the codec to light up on the screen of their shiny new HDMI 1.3 receiver that they don't realize most HDMI 1.1 receivers that handle LPCM correctly can do the same job. The only exception would be DTS-HD MA at the moment since no current player can decode internally and output it as PCM (PS3 is rumored to get this in a firmware).

Well I was one of the people confused about this issue initially. I bought a Yamaha RX-v2600 a year ago, and I was pissed when True HD and these other codecs were released just after my purchase. After lots of reading I figured out that it didn't matter, my HDMI 1.1 connection could handle the LPCM and give me the same audio, just as Shaddai pointed out. Now if only my receiver could handle 1080P instead of just 1080i....

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Dec 19, 2007]

There seems to be some confusion with HDMI and Lossless audio. As stated the only way to test the dacs on the receiver and let the receiver decode the better sound is with the firmware update. You CANNOT use HDMI as PCM and get the Lossless audio!!!! If you use this way the reciever decodes it as REGULAR digital not Plus or HD sound. Even though the DVD lets you select Plus and HD sound YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT. You will need to use the multi-channel outs on HDDVD to get lossless sound, this is the only way other than just reported with the update. The multi-channel outs by the way is still the better way to go as the processing is being done outside of the receiver and allows the receiver to become a power amp and the dvd player becomes your pre-amp, similar to component systems (B&K, Krell, Mark Levinson). Use high quality interconnects such as Audioquest King Cobras and your in business. It seems that everyone on this site has it connected incorrectly. It's a shame that the industry (HD DVD, Blu-ray, AV Receivers) doesn't do a better job of clarifing this topic.

[Post edited by MovieGuy on Dec 19, 2007]

Don't you lose the secondary audio streams (like the annoying menu clicks on the popup menu) if you let your receiver do the decoding via bit-stream?

Movieguy and Henning, please read the following thread in this AVS forum as it has all the info you need as it seems "marketing" is getting in the way:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

I have been enjoying HBR audio from my PS3 and HD-A3 for some time now and I have an HDMI 1.2a receiver. The key is internal decoding being done in the respective players and outputting as PCM through HDMI. If you use the optical connection, then your audio will be re-encoded as DTS@1.5Mbps or Dolby Digital@640kbps, depending on the player (is this what you are refering to, Movieguy?). There's no way I'm getting "lesser audio" through my HDMI connection.

Quote:
You CANNOT use HDMI as PCM and get the Lossless audio!!!! If you use this way the reciever decodes it as REGULAR digital not Plus or HD sound.

Multichannel Linear-PCM is a lossless format (and uncompressed). Perhaps some receivers will down-convert it to stereo or whatever, but it is a lossless format non-the-less.

shaddai: That's the way I'm doing it too. My receiver says "PCM 48" and all 5 speaker icons are lit up. I take it that's a good thing?

Edit: Movieguy might be talking about DTS-HD MA, which only the core DTS 1.5Mps is decoded and sent via L-PCM. But that's the only trouble codec.

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 19, 2007]

Quote:
You CANNOT use HDMI as PCM and get the Lossless audio!!!! If you use this way the reciever decodes it as REGULAR digital not Plus or HD sound.

Movieguy you are incorrect. You may be referring to a digital bitstream sent over HDMI or optical, but LPCM over HDMI is lossless.

Skyhawk, from what I've read some players will mix the primary AND secondary audio (ie. commentary, etc.) streams and output in a lossy DD format through bitstream. Other players will forgo the menu sounds as you suggested. Depends on the player and whether it's Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

My current Yamaha receiver has the 5.1 multi-channel inputs so I have 2 options.

1. Upgrade from the HD A2 to the HD XA2 or the HD A35.
2. Get one of the Onkyo amps.

I'm thinking of upgrading the player because it will be much cheaper than if I upgrade my receiver. Especially since my current receiver has the 5.1 inputs.

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Dec 19, 2007]

Falcon is your TV big enough to benefit from 1080P if you upgraded to the A35??

Falcon01, judging by the lack of DTS-HD HR and DTS-HD MA for domestic HD-DVD titles, I think you are making the right move upgrading to the XA2 or A35. There are some music and foreign HD-DVD's with DTS-HD MA but unless you plan to own any of those, your current receiver is in good shape.

Sure Falcon, but think of how many cables you can eliminate from your system by upgrading your receiver!

And it you're using "highest-end" monster cables for those 5 discrete channels, you could buy a new HDMI receiver just for the price of the cables alone

Bosshog, I have the Pioneer 50" plasma 5080HD which is 1080i so I wouldn't benefit from 1080P but from my understanding the A35 and the XA2 can do 1080i also right? I'm kinda leaning towards the XA2 because of the Reon chip for regular DVD's.

Shaddai, I'm not big on music titles at the moment and I'm definitely not into foreign titles unless it's an HD DVD import that's only available on bluray in North America.

Skyhawk, I've learned my lesson about Monster cables

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Dec 19, 2007]

LOL, Skyhawk!

I'll be honest. I love the simplicity of HDMI. I even got rid of the MC analog cables going from my Pioneer Elite DV59 universal player to the Pioneer Elite 84 since I can use the iLink (IEEE1394 or firwire).

Falcon01, God forbid HD-DVD loses the format war, a new HDMI 1.3 receiver WOULD work with Blu-ray as well. Something to think about. Oh, and you could use the new receiver right away through your A2's HDMI and let the player do the decoding.

[Post edited by shaddai on Dec 19, 2007]

Falcon I would spend the money on the XA2 for the very reason you brought up...the Reon chip. Your audio will also be great using your 5.1 inputs on your Yammy as the XA2 also has high quality DACS (Sharc I believe).

So seriously, is there any difference in sound between using the 5.1 analogue inputs or listening through the HDMI cable on a receiver that can decode HD audio like the new Onkyos?

There should be NO difference right?

Bosshog wrote:

Quote:
Falcon I would spend the money on the XA2 for the very reason you brought up...the Reon chip. Your audio will also be great using your 5.1 inputs on your Yammy as the XA2 also has high quality DACS (Sharc I believe).

I didn't know the XA2 had better audio DACs. You just made my day!

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Dec 19, 2007]

shaddai,

One good reason to upgrade to an HDMI receiver and get rid of all those cables is if you have cats in the house. We do, and one likes to chew. The RCA cables have a rubbery kinda coating and are thinner, being the cat's preferred chewing cable. The HDMI cables are thicker, and have a harder shielding that this cat finds less attractive. Plus less cables = less chewing maintenance. I'd personally kick the cat to the curb, but like many of us I'm married to a wife that loves this darn animal.

See you wouldn't get this kind of advice on cabling from most AV type forums. This advanced stuff can only be found here!

Edit: BTW, you don't want to know about the other cat and what happened when I spent over $300 one time on floor-to-ceiling velvet curtains for the home theater room!

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Dec 19, 2007]

Wow, I didn't think so many people would respond. I went through this a year ago with my XA1, and trying to use the HDMI for the lossless material, only to be dissapointed. As this is what I do for a living, I have heard first hand both scenerios. Actually recently, I set up the the Pioneer Elite 94 receiver to run both Blu ray and HD-DVD Lossless though HDMI and yes while it looks nice to see the TrueHD and DTSMaster light up on the display, I stand with firm conviction that the Multi outs are far superior than letting the receiver do the decoding through the HDMI. Since both are using Sharc DACs and the XA1 having 4 floating Sharc DACS, and the aforementioned component arrangement being better anyway, I found it vastly superior in sound to the HDMI. The LG combo (100) also sounds fantastic, as does the new Samsung 5000 HD/Blu-ray combo that just came out yesturday at the stores. All hooked up with Multi out. Also: Look on AVS forum if you need more info on HDMI and TrueHD and you'll see for yourself if you don't believe me, it won't work with HDMI using PCM out on the DVD menu. I leave a 1% chance of being wrong. I'm not perfect.

Movieguy, thats some good information. Thanks

Personally I found the Onkyo doing a better job than the the XA2. Not saying that the analog out option is bad jut not at par with the HDMI solution.

Quote:
So seriously, is there any difference in sound between using the 5.1 analogue inputs or listening through the HDMI cable on a receiver that can decode HD audio like the new Onkyos?

There should be NO difference right?

If you use the 5.1 discrete inputs you may notice a lower overall bass volume until you play with your levels. Other than that, it will depend on what has the better DACS, your receiver or the XA2. Your Yamaha amp if it is like mine will have Burr Brown DACS, which are also good quality...so it will really be a subjective thing on what you prefer.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Dec 19, 2007]

Quote:
Look on AVS forum if you need more info on HDMI and TrueHD and you'll see for yourself if you don't believe me, it won't work with HDMI using PCM out on the DVD menu. I leave a 1% chance of being wrong. I'm not perfect.

You're right Movieguy you aren't perfect because you are incorrect on this one
If you output True HD over HDMI in PCM format it will be lossless and identical quality to your amp decoding to PCM. Are you sure that you have your HD DVD player set correctly? You have to go into the Toshiba set up menu in order to enable PCM over HDMI. Also, your problems with passing True HD via PCM over HDMI may be due to old firmware. I think this feature was enables as part of a firmware upgrade at some point.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Dec 19, 2007]

I recall Amir, the Microsoft VP "Insider" at the AVS Forums, suggesting that it is always best to use the fewest number of stops in any chain of equipment. Using a Tohsiba HD DVD player's internal encoding and then a receiver's new HDMI TrueHD decoding requires an additional step in the audio processing that you simply don't have to deal with when using an appropriately equipped player's 5.1 outputs directly to a receiver's 5.1 inputs.

However, that doesn't mean a listener will like one over the other. If you can hook up your system both ways (assuming you've just bought one of these new, compliant receivers), you can listen both way and judge for yourself. As someone mentioned, though, the 5.1 inputs require a 10-db bass boost to compensate for their not having the low-end equalization built into Dolby decoders.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on Dec 19, 2007]

Movieguy not to beat a deadhorse but...
If you have version 2.0 or higher firmware (on your Toshiba XA1) you will be able to output 5.1 lossless True HD PCM to your receiver over HDMI. The firmwares previous to 2.0 limited the XA1 to 2-channel True HD only...maybe this was your problem.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Dec 19, 2007]

Movieguy, it doesn't seem like you are up to date on your news. The Samsung 5000 has a known bug where if you try to decode TrueHD internally and then output either through the multichannel analog outs or even PCM through the HDMI, you will only get 2 channel TrueHD! There are over 947 posts in this thread alone:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=955388

I believe the latest LG dual format player suffers from the same deficiency as well. Owners are hoping for a firmware fix. I hope for their sake they get it. Note that this deficiency is the exception and not the norm. Lossless PCM from player internal decoding and decoding in the receiver will give you the same result. The only time the multichannel out from the player comes into play is if the DAC on the player is better than in the receiver. The majority of DAC's in CE devices are comparable. You need to buy super high-end to get any appreciable difference.

Movieguy, it seems like you could raise your home theater IQ by frequenting the AVS forum. I know I did. Sometimes there's a lot of "drama" but newbies are usually treated well.

Quote:
Personally I found the Onkyo doing a better job than the the XA2. Not saying that the analog out option is bad jut not at par with the HDMI solution.

Henning, if you want to test what we're saying is true, do the following:

1) Set the XA2 to output PCM through HDMI.
2) Using an SPL meter, note the dB levels while playing an audio calibration disc.
3) Watch your favorite reference HD-DVD scene.

4) Set the XA2 to bitstream through HDMI.
5) Use the SPL meter and adjust the receiver levels until the dB level is the same as previously when it was being decoded internally (there is a tendency to think something sounds better when it is actually louder)
6) Replay the same reference scene and listen for differences. It should sound exactly the same!

In both instances, the DAC in the player is bypassed and it is a pure digital to digital signal going to the receiver using HDMI. Only difference is where the decoding is done. Either way, the receiver is doing actual "work", converting the digital signal to something that speakers can understand (along with various processing, if available).

[Post edited by shaddai on Dec 19, 2007]

Hi,
I have a Toshiba XA2 and a Sony S1 Blu-Ray! I have them rigged up to the new Denon 4308 with Chord 1.3a Silver Plus HDMI cables!
But I can never get my Receiver to light up with the codecs as you mention!
I usually get Multichannel or the Normal Dolby Digital lighting up!
I have never been able to get Dolby Digital plus, Dolby True HD or somewhat like to come on!
I presumed it was just firmware, but I am running the latest firmware on both machines!
Please advise on any settings I should check!
My Machines are coupled with HDMI and set to Bitstream!

Quote:
I have a Toshiba XA2 and a Sony S1 Blu-Ray! I have them rigged up to the new Denon 4308 with Chord 1.3a Silver Plus HDMI cables!
But I can never get my Receiver to light up with the codecs as you mention!

Gusfielden, assuming you have the latest firmware (2.7 for the XA2), you will want to make sure that you have the following audio setup in the XA2:

1) AUDIO-->DIGITAL DIRECT AUDIO MODE.
2) Set DIGITAL DIRECT AUDIO MODE to ON and DIGITAL OUT HDMI to Auto.

An informative thread can be found here for all the details of the latest firmware:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937992

Edit: Oh, as far as I know, the Sony S1 does not have bitstreaming capability of HBR audio over HDMI other than straight uncompressed PCM and doesn't have internal decoders for DolbyTrueHD or DTS-HD MA. The S1 is a first gen BD player and like most players in that period, is greatly limited (price of being an early adopter, I guess). Someone correct me if firmware has changed all that. If you want to see the new codecs light up on your Denon 4308, stick with the XA2 for that!

Good luck!

[Post edited by shaddai on Dec 20, 2007]

I am glad I left the 1 % chance of being wrong. It seems that you guys are correct with repects to lossless audio through HDMI. It is capable using PCM. As I am an early adopter to any new tech (SACD/DVD Audio, HD, Plasma's - 11 years and counting and still working fine), the XA1 when I first purchased could only do TrueHD in stereo only. Then came the firmware update and it could do 5.1 channel HD audio. It was at that time that I tried the HDMI to run TrueHD and it would not work, no matter which way (PCM/Bitstream), so I gave up on HDMI for the sound. Since then all the hook ups I've done have 5.1 outs or recently HDMI Bitstream. Somewhere along the line with one of the firmware updates, XA1 and the others do now work with the HDMI PCM, so you guys are right. I was speaking from previous experiences when you couldn't. I will now have my humble pie. Thanks for the info, although it really doesn't change what I have been doing, it's nice to pass on to my guys that they can enjoy the new sound from a receiver with older HDMI's. And for the record, the sound from HDMI verses the 5.1 with the cables I have ( 3 pairs of Audioquest King Cobras - 279.99 each) sound amazing CLOSE. Not much, if any difference. Of course I have MSeries HDMI, but I expected the cobras to smoke it, not the case. There is a difference, again with the receiver doing the decoding (1.3), again having heard the receiver decode it and the dvd, not to beat a dead horse, but I prefer the DVD doing the decoding for reasons already mentioned. Thanks again.

Movieguy, previously you had mentioned some namebrands that made me think you would rather do separates instead of letting the player do the decoding. The "ideal" system has the player output bitstream to a processor which in turn feeds a power amplifier before going to the speakers. Separates are preferred over the "all in one" receiver for its expansion capabilities as well as less interference b/w devices. Only downside with separates are cost and multiple devices needing shelf space.

I wouldn't expect much of a downgrade going from analog to HDMI. As a matter of fact, the large range in quality of analog cables can give you different biases in the treble and bass regions. I own some Audioquest cables myself but I would never have purchased if I didn't have an employee discount. HDMI and the HD formats have introduced a whole new audiophile world to the common joe. Lossless sound can be enjoyed by all! Too bad SACD and DVD-Audio are going to die off before people even discover them.

Shaddai!
Many thanks! What you said worked a treat!
I hadn't switched the direct Audio on, on the Toshiba! Do Toshiba not do new manuals to download now they have changed menu's!
Anyway many thanks and have a great christmas!

Don't suppose you know how to do the same if possible with my Sony S1 Blu-ray, the menu's are quite basic!
Will I need to buy a new Blu-Ray player! I also have a PS3 should that work like the Tosh and is there anything I should check in my settings! My PS3 doesn't show up Dolby True HD or anything!

Please advise!

Quote:
Don't suppose you know how to do the same if possible with my Sony S1 Blu-ray, the menu's are quite basic!
Will I need to buy a new Blu-Ray player! I also have a PS3 should that work like the Tosh and is there anything I should check in my settings! My PS3 doesn't show up Dolby True HD or anything!

Please advise!

Gusfielden, unfortunately your Sony S1 is a first gen dead-end. It can't ever give you the lossless formats as it can't decode them internally and it can't bitstream it through HDMI either. You don't need to buy a new Blu-ray player as the PS3 is arguably the best one! As a matter of fact, the PS3 just became Profile 1.1 compliant with the latest firmware this week. It will also be 2.0 compliant when that day comes (1.1 compliant players now typically cannot be upgraded to 2.0).

The PS3 will give you the lossless formats differently than how your XA2 is bitstreaming to the receiver. Since the PS3 can internally decode DolbyTrueHD and also send the "core" of DTS-HD MA, you should make sure your HDMI is set to "PCM" instead of "Bitstream" in the audio setup. Although you won't see the lossless codec light up on your receiver, you will still receive the TrueHD sound converted to PCM, which is the same quality as if you had done it in the receiver! Of all the current players in the world (including HD-DVD ones), only the PS3 has been rumored to get internal DTS-HD MA decoding through firmware. The PS3 being somewhat of a supercomputer might have something to do with that! Enjoy lossless audio from both your XA2 and your PS3!

Henning I have a question that I don't know if you can answer.

Do the 605 and 805 have the same audio DAC's? I just got a nice offer on the 605 and even though it's only 90 watts per channel it's pretty much an offer I may not be able to refuse.

Actually a quick search on Google answered my question. It looks like the 805 has the Burr Brown DAC as does my current Yamaha receiver. Now I really don't know what to do :p

Comparison at the Onkyo site here

605 to 705
Adds Preamp outputs
Adds THX Select 2
Adds an extra HDMI input (3)
Adds optical out
Change from Audyssey 2EQ to Audyssey MultiEQ
Change from 100 to 250ms A/V Sync

705 to 805
Change to THX Ultra 2
Adds Dual Push-Pull amplification
Change from Cirrus Logic to Burr Brown DACs
Adds zone 3 audio out
Adds an extra Svideo in (6)
Change from L/R to 7.1 ch tone control
Change to a larger case

805 to 875
Adds an extra HDMI input (4)
Adds Reon upscaling chip
Adds Vector Linear Shaping Circuit to all channels
Adds zone 2 video out (composite)
Allows bridging of speakers (not much use IMO)

In simple terms, going to the 805 should give you better audio with the change in the DACs/amplification. The VLSC on the 875 will also potentially make some improvement. Going to the 875 will improve the video output (provided that you need upscaling, may improve upconversion)


http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665197

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Dec 21, 2007]

Falcon01,

Here's my two cents. If you don't ever plan on buying the XA2 or anything that has the Reon chip for that matter, go for the 875. Otherwise, the 805 is just as good if not satisfactory to videophiles. Note that the Faroudja solution on lower end Onkyos are not compatible with certain displays because of macroblocking.

Shaddai, you're a good man. I think I'll just wait around for a good price on the XA2

Falcon01, good luck on the wait. I played the same game with the XA2 on Amazon. It got as low as about $380 and I should have purchased it then. Now Amazon no longer carries it directly. As it's a discontinued player, if you can find it anywhere new it's probably a good opportunity.

Amazon has had great pricing on the A35 but it doesn't have the Reon.

Many Thanks Shaddai!

I still need a new Blu-Ray Player because my PS3 is English and my discs are U.S.

Any recommendations!

How is the new Panasonic BMP-30

Have a good christmas!

Gusfielden, If you must get a Profile 1.1 player now and don't want to wait for 2.0 players, then the Panasonic DMP-BD30 is a fine choice. Note that it can never be upgraded to Profile 2.0 because its local storage will never become 1GB and the player doesn't have an ethernet port. If you're ok with not being able to take advantage of some special features from Profile 2.0 Blu-ray discs, then go with the Panasonic. In any case, all movies on any version Profile of a Blu-ray disc will play on any version of Blu-ray hardware (just some special features may not be accessible).

Since you are dual format supporter like me, my recommendation is to stick with HD-DVD for the special features and Blu-ray for the overall movie experience.

Many Thanks Shaddai have a good Christmas!