HD DVD camp issues press release

This is all relevant regardless of Warner's decision. It's obvious the pricing is a big player in the (still on-going) format war.

so they went from 41 to 65. Minus WB, New Line and HBO, thats still more than 60.

HD-DVD weakness has always been advertising, especially attacking Blu Ray. It makes you look like the better man, but you don't win that way anymore. People don't respect that. They respect power, force, intimidation. Look at our leaders for proof of that. If they had been more aggressive, they wouldn't be in this bind now. Maybe because cheap players didnt afford a lot of advertsing costs

Quote:
"The Bourne Ultimatum" on HD DVD outsold "Spiderman 3" on Blu-ray.

That maybe true but in Warner's case they were moving more Blu ray titles than HDDVD titles.

JServo,

You're right, SONY attacked on all sides (no personal ones), out flanking HDDVD at every turn but price. Their advertising was nothing short of a blitz and a very good one. But the PS3 was literally a SONY Trojan Horse, a video game system with a Blu ray player inside.

I just think its premature to call it "game over".
The backing of MS/Gates is struly the wild card in all of this, the financial reserves are endless and May is quite a distance off. Gates/Toshiba were stung with a very embarrassing situation and I find it difficult to imagine they will sit by and watch HD DVD fold the tent. Even if Gates true goal is Downloadable Media I think he might take one last large swipe at Sony and cause them some severe financial pain and leave a "scar" on Sony as a reminder for the future.

Microsoft on downloads only would be sill this early. downloads arent the same quality yet, and wont give them money like HDi.

Toshiba and MS are probably deciding what to do. Im sure they would hurt if could but how? it really wasent they fault waner decided pro blu. plus they are hurting the ps3 with the 360 already. if people buy the ps3 to play movies, sure sales numbers keep going up, but sony makes no money in games and losse moeny per console. I sure wont buy any games on ps3, i ment i have no plans at all whatsoever. all my first have 360 and im extremely happy with it /on Live /media center/ etc.

I think its been pretty well demonstrated that the studios can be bought. Given that approach and dependent upon Gates, three or four big checks to Warner, Disney, Fox etc might swing the pendulum once again. Again, May is a long ways away.
There is also a possibility of a last ditch marketing efforts wherein the consumer purchases X amount of Universal and Paramount discs (combos in all liklihood) and receive an HD DVD player.
Really, they have absolutely nothing to lose at this point, machines can sit unsold in warehouses or blown out in one last big push.
Teams that have nothing to lose usually end up being underestimated so at the very least it will be interesting to see the strategy going forward: fight to the finish or raise the white flag.

This press release is kinda sad ... a very transparent (or hollow) like Henning says.

HD DVD had long spoke of attach rates as meaning so much, and now they say it's 2:1? Didn't it used to be 4:1? ... and Blu-ray standalones outsold HD DVD standalones (this doesn't even include PS3s).

The studio support comment is just silly at this point ... with Warner Bros. going Blu-ray exclusive and all.

I know HD DVD needs to pretend everything's ok for now ... but as Universal goes neutral and/or Blu-ray exclusive soon, and Paramount ends their contract (at the latest) early in 2009, things are really looking bleak for the future of HD DVD.

[Post edited by funstuff72 on Jan 7, 2008]

Superdynamite, I mean fun stuff, where does it say bluray standalones outsold HD DVD stand alones? Nowhere. Why? Cause it didn't happen. HD DVD stand alones outsold bluray players.

As for your Universal is going neutral, please post a link to this information. Otherwise you're spreading misinformation as usual.

Blu-ray Standalone's Outsold HD DVD players in December despite $99 Sale:

http://www.n4g.com/News-97212.aspx

Perhaps we HD-DVD fans can be equated to the 300. In the end, we'll go down, but damned if we don't make people remember us.

None of these press releases say whether they count the PS3 as a set-top model. Its very unclear.

Toshiba said it themselves and showed it with a chart:

So as this shows the "standalone" argument is trumped. Factor in then the PS3 effect and it makes logical sense why Warner Bros. went Blu-ray exclusive.

funstuff, your shows "# 1 Toshiba 49.3%" at the very bottom. How does bluray outsell it?

depends on who is doing the reporting. they really should be counted. just as XBox HD add ons, and computer drivers as well should be counted. Stand alone players is a very deceptive number.

This is extremely embarrassing for HDDVD, but it isnt over yet. A lot of people seem to be claiming victory for blu-ray already, but I dont think thats true. Microsoft and Toshiba won't stand by and let HDDVD go quietly into the night. Something big will happen between now and May and I imagine it will involve a movie studio or company(computer manufacturer perhaps) going HDDVD exclusive.

Oh and I noticed people were saying that Universal would go bluray soon or neutral, but that isnt gonna happen. Universal has a real stick up its ass about blu-ray and no one seems to know why, but they wont support bluray unless it's their only choice.

All fanboyism aside, I think anyone with half a brain could see that HDDVD was hurt by this. Really hurt, but they will recover. HDDVDs biggest problems right now are...

1. Studio support. They need someone to fill the hole that warner left by May.
2. Toshiba is really the only big manufacturer of HDDVD players. Venturer is great for HDDVD in the long run as a Chinese manufacturer is key for worldwide distribution, but venturer is no Samsung or Sony.
3. They just need more support in general. The DVD forum basically had Toshiba do everything. Now Toshiba is a large company and a successful one at that, but they can't carry the weight of HDDVD all by themselves.

I gotta say I have enormous respect for Toshiba. Even through all this theyre still doing well. If they just had one more company to exclusively manufacturer HDDVD players it wouldnt be so hard on them..

[Post edited by NutManIV on Jan 7, 2008]

From my understanding standalones does not include XBOX 360 HD DVD add-on, PS3 or any PC drives.

I don't see why people think Microsoft will come to HD DVD's rescue. Why cause they made add-ons for the XBOX 360 and HD DVD uses HDi? Why would Microsoft blow money to invest in HD DVD? What would be their return on investment?

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Jan 7, 2008]

that link dont say jack. anyhow.. Toshiba should do somethign and do it quick! or not just put it to rest. i mean forgetting the benefits of HDDVD.. Warner put it this way. we make some moeny, and most likely end the war.

i dont think is in MS best interest to cut checks, and thats tryign to believe they did it to paramount. Toshiba could do it aswell.. not just ms. Plus seems Sony/ Disney and Fox have a very strong relationship besides whatever insentives. Those guys are all having drinks right now.

"I don't see why people think Microsoft will come to HD DVD's rescue. Why cause they made add-ons for the XBOX 360 and HD DVD uses HDi? Why would Microsoft blow money to invest in HD DVD? What would be their return on investment?"

It is in microsofts best interest for HDDVD to succeed. HDi would be the main reason. HDi is really the reason that there's a format war in the first place. BDA didn't want to use HDi and instead chose a Java platform for interactivity. If I remember correctly it was HP and of course Microsoft that objected to this which caused the breakdown of negotiations and a failure to create one format.

The return on their investment would be enormous simply because the format uses HDi. Simple as that.

Falcon01,

All of the non-red pie pieces are Blu-ray. That means that a majority of the chart is Blu-ray.

Funstuff, one piece of the pie is LG (combo players) and another listed as Other can be Venturer (HD DVD), and other manufacturers for both formats. This still means HD DVD has a bigger slice of the pie. What are you seeing?

My wife works at a metro-Boston big box retailer... Blue Ray players have sat in backstock forever... Never sold a single one. The movies take up more floor space, but again - she says they rarely sell.

Wait a second, Blu-Ray didn't outsell HD Players, that report showed sales of HD Players by manufacturer but don't forget that Toshiba wasn't the only one selling HD Players as there was one other manufacturer and a dual format manufacturer... Basically .7 of 1% was probably sold by Venturer and every one of the 500,000 Add-ons for the 360 are guaranteed to be for movies.

Note that the Venturer is probably covered in the "All Other" Maroon Category and that looks like 3-5% of the pie as well.

[Post edited by elterrible on Jan 7, 2008]

Funstuff72, the $100 player was sold out pre thanksgiving and at 1,000,000 Million players sold being 49.3% I would say that the $100 sale would significantly tip the scales in favor of HD-DVD by more than 5%.

funstuff72 posts in a very familiar matter. anyhow.. guys I dont know it looks pretty ugly with barely any movies.

did any of you read the news of Bill Gates not even referring to HD-DVD in his demo at CES today.

Yes Tizflizz we did and Gates basically threw both formats under the bus. I still think the HD Players will hit $100 to increase sales which will put them over the top.

Pete

CES might not be the right place for the HD DVD camp to start a war of words. You might see something after the convention if Toshiba is able to get off their duff and show a little aggressiveness. But then again, given their wimpy track record up to now, who knows. I would hate to think that they will allow themselves to quietly whither away. It certainly would be a diservice to their supporters.

I may be way off the ball here but I think if HD DVD is still around next year you will see some studios go neutral, maybe even Warner. If it doesn't die and people still supprt it with sales the studios can't keep ignoring it. Seriously, if HD DVD survives another year after all this then why not? In the end there may just be two formats after all. Then again maybe someone will throw in the towel. Who knows. I'm just throwing it out there.

I can't wait to read the responses to this one

[Post edited by Falcon01 on Jan 7, 2008]

A little off topic but I think that Wii outsold every other console! HMMMMM Nintendo a company that got beat down buy Playstation and then had a major comeback......I wonder if there is another company that will comeback. Don't get me wrong I own and like Sony products and own an HD DVD player for now. This HD battle is just exhausting and confusing. I am at the point where I am saying who cares, are HD Movies really that important? Sure they are cool but these companies have wasted my time and money and I have nothing to show for it but a negative experience. Not Toshiba's fault but now consumers are going to say I am not buying any HD player right now because there is no clear option! So watch for the sales slump in Bluray's camp and sales increase for HD DVD as the players are bought up cheap.

[Post edited by Ironbull on Jan 7, 2008]

Ironbull refers to the current situation as an "HD battle" and I couldn't agree more. Just about everyone refers to it as a "war". This, my friends, is a misleading metaphor. As others have pointed out before me, the real "war" is between the current "king" which is standard DVD and whatever
will replace it in the coming years. The current high profile skirmish is but a smaller "battle" within
the larger "war" which we know is coming, but hasn't been really "fought" yet. Many things can still happen. I'm an electronics enthusiast, who in 40 plus years has seen a lot of things come and go. If
something is powered by electricity, is shiny and has a light on it, I would probably like to buy it. For the record, I own a Toshiba A1, A2, Xbox 360 with HD DVD add-on, and an eighty gig Playstation 3.
Yesterday I sold my A3 to a cousin for $99.00 for use as an upconvert DVD player. I still keep around 2 LaserDisc players and a huge stack of LaserDiscs for sentimental reasons. Did I mention I was an enthusiast ?. I enjoy reading posts in this forum, but rarely post myself. I do however enjoy the critical analysis of lots of subjects and I find the current situation interesting. Sometimes you have to step back to be able to get enough perspective to see the big picture. I knew when I started buying HD movies what the risks were. HD DVD could fail, Blu-ray could fail and even the unthinkable - They could both fail. Consider this hypothetical scenario: In the near future Toshiba
finally gives up, let's say summer of '09. They announce they will begin producing Blu-ray drives.
Has Blu-ray won? Maybe. What factors would speed up the adoption of HD media by most average,
typical hard working Americans? Obviously it helps to have an HDTV to really enjoy your HD media.
When will HDTVs be the norm and not the exception for most people? Will the digital TV transition in
February 2009 be a factor? Who knows?
The following is taken from dtv2009.gov:

At midnight on February 17, 2009, all full-power television stations in the United States will stop broadcasting in analog and switch to 100% digital broadcasting. Digital broadcasting promises to provide a clearer picture and more programming options and will free up airwaves for use by emergency responders.

Does that mean that every American must own an HDTV by that date or risk not being able to watch TV? Of course not. But you will need a TV with a digital tuner, not necessarily an HDTV.
You can get a converter box and keep your old TV set with rabbit ears if you wish. Most likely though, a lot of people will use that date as an excuse to buy themselves a new TV. Most likely some kind of LCD flat panel or whatever is cheapest at the time. What will be the percentage of people by that time that have an HDTV? Who Knows?
How long will it take most people to give up their DVDs and start buying solely the last man standing Blu-ray? Who Knows. Will they be willing to replace their DVD collections with Blu-ray?
Will they see a benefit or value in doing so?
Think of the past. How Long did it take for us to transition from the clearly inferior VHS to the clearly superior DVD format? Even with only one format (DVD) as the only successor to VHS, and even when the differences and benefits were vast, it still took years for people to give up their beloved
"tapes" and buy the new-fangled "DVD". The DVD players had to get cheap. The movies available had to be numerous and cheap (like VHS). The rental stores better have lots of them and pretty much there had to be no place left to get VHS before the transition was finalized. I can still today go to Best Buy and buy a new machine that will play VHS (most likely it will have a DVD player attached to it.) When will Blu-ray enjoy a similar scenario? When do you think most people will give up their beloved DVDs ? ( it's been so good to us). How long will that take?
Is there a huge value or benefit that most people will see with Blu-ray.? Let's see: It's still the same size 5" disk. Higher resolution, looks good on my new TV. Hhhmmm what else?
Is there a huge difference for most people between an upconverted DVD and a Blu-ray movie?
What if by the end of 2009 some as yet unknown format, or service or technology comes forth?
One that is clearly more convenient, or smaller but with more capacity, or cheaper or just plain a better value? What if everyone goes to it in droves? Could Blu-ray even though they are the last man standing still lose? Yes. Stranger things have happened. Could they win? Yes, by the same logic, but technology is a fickle thing to predict.
What has been the successor of music CDs ? Something of even higher quality sound? SACD?
DVD Audio? Was anyone demanding those formats or were companies trying to push them on consumers?
What about MP3s? A much lower quality sound format than CD, but people seem to really like their Ipods. Why? Seems like people sometimes are willing to give up a lot of quality for a bit of convinience. If I was making a roadtrip back in '92 I had to take a small suitcase full of cds to listen to the songs I wanted. Now all that and more fit in the palm of my hand and I can't really hear the diffrence.
Is Blu-ray (higher resolution movies) something most people are demanding or will demand at some point, or is it something being pushed on the consumer who really didn't ask for it. Can most people see a difference?
So many questions. No one really knows the answers. The future is yet to be written despite what you or I or anyone else may think, or believe, or know, or think they know.
Falcon 01 asked, "why would Microsoft blow money supporting HD DVD.?"
One short answer could be, "To hurt Sony."
If I remember correctly, one of the main reasons Sony released the first Playstation was "To hurt
Nintendo." Sometimes these things become more personal than business. Sometimes there are long business strategies. Why would Microsoft blow millions with the first xbox getting into a new business that they had no previous experience in?
Short answer: To slow down Sony. Microsoft saw Sony as a threat. How successful was the Playstation 2? was that success eating into PC gaming? Great PC games always spurred the
buying of upgrades, hardware or even whole new computers. What if these PC gamers moved to Playstation consoles and abandoned PC games and the buying of computers, and hardware and upgrades. Would that hurt Microsoft whose bread and butter is selling windows on new PCs? Would it not make sense then to "get into the game" and try to slow down the highly successful
Playstation brand by providing it with some competition. Sony might get too big or rich for it's britches. Microsoft sees enemies under every rock and they have lots and lots and lots of money.

Personally I've decided to slow down my purchases of HD movies in either format for now, even though I can play either format. I'm going back to upscaling DVDs. I can get at least 2 new DVDs for the price of 1 HD movie (usually around $30.00). The movies being released now aren't that great anyway since the market is still so small. Has anyone see Bram Stoker's Dracula on Blu-ray? I got it for $10 at Fry's on one of those BOGO sales and I still feel ripped off. A lot of these are of marginal quality VS the regular DVD and they have the guts to charge us $25.00 retail. There's a tiny disclaimer on the "Extras" for Dracula: "Special features are not rated and may not be in High definition." Great. It does not say which of the 6 special features is or isn't HD. I assumed none of them were. Who has time to read reviews of every disk they want to buy?
I don't want to end up spending thousands or even hundreds of dollars on disks that will just end up in a box next to my LaserDisks.
I chose both sides at the beginning of this battle, but now I'm leaving both of them until the dust settles. Remember that old classic favorite from Ecclesiastes:

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Good Night Everyone.

[Post edited by gmelgartex on Jan 8, 2008]