Re: Dead format outsells Blu-Ray!!

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Nice post, majortom. I do regret lumping you in with the trolls, shills, and Blu nuts that have invaded this site for months. Obviously, you are not an idiot, and I appreciate your arguments.

Apology accepted (not that it was a really big deal I never take any comments on internet fora personally even those clearly intended to be :-) ).

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The only problem I have is with your claim that there was never a reason to buy HD DVD over Blu, other than price.

Actually, that was not what I said. :-)

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Between Blu-ray and HD DVD, there is no specification where HD DVD exceeds Blu-ray and so there is no hook to the consumer. I will not waste my time or your time trying to convince you that Blu-ray is better, as it does not matter.

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Many people, myself included, bought HD DVD not for price (I bought my player before the big price drops), but for functionality. All features on HD DVDs worked from day one, while one can not make the same claim for Blu. Blu always had better specs and more potential, but had a very hard time putting out content that took advantage of these specs.

My point was not that HD DVD did not deliver its interactive layer earlier, just that even in this area, Blu-ray's specifications exceed those of HD DVD. Blu-ray requires 1GB of local store for BD Live players or 256 MB for BonusView players vs. only 128MB for HD DVD.

What this means is that trying to convince consumers, HD DVD supporters had to say: "We can do this now," while Blu-ray supporters would say: "We can do this better." Again, I will not waste time trying to convince you that my format is better, as it is irrelevant. What does matter is that if one tries to explain this to the average consumer one will see eyes glaze over.

Interactive content, once delivered, may or may not be compelling, but without demonstrations is unlikely to sway people.

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They also had problems early on putting any features on discs at all!

Blu-ray is a more advanced format (again, it does not matter if the better specifications really matter) and as such, was not ready when HD DVD launched. It should have waited 6-12 months after HD DVD finally launched before it was truly ready for its own launch. Blu-ray supporters made a strategic error by launching before they were fully ready with BonusView players and did not ensure their first transfers were pristine, to not allow HD DVD too much time alone on the battlefield. They did themselves a disservice because they received negative publicity from their early problems, rather than just talking about their delayed launch.

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Even after a couple of years, Blu is still catching up to HD DVD in terms of interactivity and web enabled content, and it really should never have taken this long to catch up. Blu is becoming a viable option, and I will buy at some point, but there doesn't seem any point in rushing out and picking a player up unless I'm interested in a PS3, which I'm not.

Blu-ray has not shipped any BD Live players yet. Having seen some of their demos at CES and in other venues, I can say that, at a minimum, they can do anything that HD DVD can do (although HD DVD is currently shipping some of this content today). It remains to be seen if this is really compelling to users. What does matter is that all these differences mean that to really create versions for both platforms requires much more work, and with no easy to explain hook for consumers, HD DVD cannot justify having that work done.

I am curious about two things. First why are you opposed to getting a Playstation 3? In talking with some friends at CES, it was suggested that Sony should release a Playstation 3 in a CE sized enclosure (i.e. same size and shape as a regular DVD player), ship it with an IR sensor and the Blu-ray remote, but without the game controllers. Call it their Advanced Media Player. Let people know that if they wish to upgrade, they can add Advanced Gaming for the price of a controller. It would be an interesting strategy.

Second, given that HD DVD lost and as such there is a non-zero chance that within a few years it may be difficult to find HD DVD playback devices, do you plan to continue to buy new HD DVD content? If so, will you only buy currently exclusive titles or will you buy whatever you can find at a discount?

What confuses me about new purchases now is the likely hood of lock in, meaning that as we move forward and Blu-ray hardware prices fall, people are going to have a Blu-ray player on every display just as they do currently with DVD. It seems likely that most people will not want to have two HD players at each set and so it seems short sighted to purchase content whose use will be, potentially, so limited.

Unlike some of the very small niche versions of some titles produced for Laserdisc where still have not been released on DVD, most HD DVD exclusive titles are mainstream and should be released on Blu-ray within two years (possibly sooner).

/carmi

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Blu-ray will be the next DVD.

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Actually it's more like, Why Blu-Ray will NEVER be the next DVD....

Just in case you really do not understand the point made it the original post, what the author is claiming, is that just as VHS was replaced by DVD, DVD will be replaced Blu-ray.

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DVD is the trademarked name for a disc format sanctioned by the DVD Forum.

Just as VHS was a trademarked name for a tape system created by JVC.

Owning a trademark does not prevent a technology from being replaced.

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The BDA can't advertise Blu Ray as the next generation DVD, because it isn't DVD at all.

It can advertise itself as "the logical successor to DVD", "Beyond DVD", "Obsoletes DVD" or many other things to tie these technologies together in consumers minds and make it clear that Blu-ray is better than and is a replacement for DVD.

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Only HD DVD earned the distinction to be called a DVD and to be the next generation of DVD.

It earned nothing. It was simply picked by Toshiba whose control over the DVD forum is clear.

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Today, the next generation of DVD is HD DVD, and the generation of DVD beyond HD DVD will be the one sanctioned by the DVD Forum, and allowed to use the DVD name.

Just in case you missed it, HD DVD died. It will not succeed DVD. The HD shiny disc format has been chosen by the market place and is called Blu-ray Disc. It is highly unlikely that the DVD forum will remain relevant long enough to try to craft a follow on to Blu-ray Disc.

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It is commonly misconstrued here, and even in many media releases that Blu-Ray Disc won the next generation DVD format war.

It simply won the HD shiny disc media war. Which means that it is simply the logical successor to DVD, and if it is successful (something that all CE retailers, most CE manufacturers, and all studios) will do their best to ensure, it will supplant DVD in the market.

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Unfortunately, Sony and the BDA can't identify the Blu-Ray name as a DVD, and there are no DVD's that can call themselves Blu Ray.

They do not want to do so. What they want to do is establish that Blu-ray is better than and a replacement for DVD. While you (and some other HD DVD supporters) may wish that the DVD imprimatur carried the day, it is thought by many that the DVD Forum's name choice hurt it in the market. It made it hard for consumer to differentiate between upconverting DVD players and actual HD DVD players.

In contrast, Blu-ray Disc with its new logo, makes it very clear that it is something different.

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The BDA can't use the DVD Forum coattails to fool people that it has anything to do with DVD.

It seems that the market has demonstrated that DVD has no coattails, hence the DVD forum's loss in the market.

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isn't even standardized yet
....

Fortunately HD DVD is a finalized standard, so there is no HD DVD 1.1, 2.0, 2.1, ect[sic]...

Since in your world once a "standard" is released, it cannot be modified in any way, it might surprise you to know that NTSC, though over 50 years old was never "finalized". MTS stereo was added, line 22 captioning was added, XDS packets were added, content control was added.

Both BonusView and BD Live will exist in the market at the same time. Many users will not care about interactive content and as such will not want to pay extra for BD Live players. I expect that other backward compatible changes will happen over time. Some may be compatible with most current players, some may require new players to take advantage of them.

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In the end, why would a real DVD want to be called something Blu anyway????

Inanimate objects have no desires.

/carmi

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By the way, because of the protocols of HDCP when hdmi is used it bypasses the video scaler inside ALL PANELS!

Sorry, this is simply not true. HDCP encrypts the data on the link. Once the data has been received by a compliant device, it may be processed in any way that device wishes. The HDCP specification does not even require (as some similar systems do) that decrypted data not be available outside the decryption chip, all that it requires is that the data not be passed on in analog form and if the data is passed on in digital form it is also HDCP protected.

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yes the picture is RE-SIZED, but not up-scaled.

Since neither of these is a technical term, I have no idea what you mean.

However, in order to display the incoming digital data it needs to decrypted and then processed for display. What processing is done is purely a function of the particular display. The Olevia 747i uses Silicon Optix's Realta chip for scaling and processing. It does this both on its component and HDMI inputs.

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You need an external processor capable of very complex algoriths (example-faroudja dcdi cells) for this.

If by external you mean "not in the same box as the display", this is clearly false. In fact, I cannot think of a single way of interpreting your statement that would make it correct. A System-on-a-Chip (SoC) may very well have its main processor perform temporal and spacial transcoding. This may be done anywhere in the HDMI chain (from the player, to the AV receiver, to the display).

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and you will realise having only 1366 or 1024 horizontal lines limits your grey scale gradiation[sic].

Color gradation is not a factor of resolution, but of pixel intensity. One may use dithering (which is affected by resolution), to modify color gradation, but it is not required.



/carmi

[Post edited by majortom on Mar 4, 2008]

gvortex7 wrote:

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We're "nutters" and you're not? Nobody is trying to convince you of anything because absolutely nobody gives two shits whether you, toshibaboy, vcipher or even that fruit xplay get a Blu-ray player or not. We're just here to counter all the BS you all are spreading. That's all.

Vortex I like your passion. Honestly. Although I have to admit we are countering your BS. Look it's one thing to support a format and it's another to fanatic about it to the point your posting blatant misinformation. We have bluray supporters on this forum that post accurate information and their opinions on things which is fine. Yes sometimes we disagree on certain things but that is normal. You my friend go overboard sometimes (I have seen you make posts that weren't fanatical). Support bluray all you want but quit it with the ridiculous anti-HD DVD posts. We all know bluray is the winner in the "format war" and we will probably have to buy into bluray at some point but there are better ways of getting your point across.

I'm the fanatic. That's funny.

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Vortex I like your passion. Honestly. Although I have to admit we are countering your BS. Look it's one thing to support a format and it's another to fanatic about it to the point your posting blatant misinformation. We have bluray supporters on this forum that post accurate information and their opinions on things which is fine. Yes sometimes we disagree on certain things but that is normal. You my friend go overboard sometimes (I have seen you make posts that weren't fanatical). Support bluray all you want but quit it with the ridiculous anti-HD DVD posts. We all know bluray is the winner in the "format war" and we will probably have to buy into bluray at some point but there are better ways of getting your point across.

I'm just curious. What blatant misinformation was I spreading? Please show me the post. By the way, I have no problem with disagreeing with anyone, but what I do have problems with is people on the other side spreading FUD about Blu-ray every chance they get. Like you for example. The only reason I'm getting chastized here is because our agendas don't match. It's quite simple really. If I was fellow HD lover, I'm quite cetain we'd be throwing high5's to eachother. Just so you know I don't get emotional about formats, but I can't say the same for some other people on the forum. But if I get attacked, I will defend myself.