Re: Dead format outsells Blu-Ray!!

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But you have a point 1080p is useless, me and the other 2.5gazillion people who have invested have been led astray!!

Toshibaman you're right, you have been led astray! As so many have already pointed out, there is almost always NO discernable difference in picture quality between a 1080i and a 1080p source. I have tested both on my 58" plasma, and I CANNOT see a difference...and I have a very discerning eye. With that said, maybe my plasma TV does a good job of de-interlacing the signal to it's native 1080P resolution...all I know is you CAN'T see the difference.

Quit spouting off on specs and go watch your damn movies.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Mar 3, 2008]

> Why Blu-ray will be the next DVD

Excerpt -

The Real Red vs Blue

Not sure if anyone could've ever predicted that DVD would be as successful as it has been, and when a format dominates the way DVD has, it's hard to imagine a world without it. People love to point out that Americans are happy with DVD and don't appreciate the marginal improvement of Blu-ray. These people give joe six pack too much credit. We're talking about the same people who buy so many upconverting DVD players, that its nearly impossible to buy a DVD player that doesn't upconvert. This is despite the fact that every HDTV sold has an upconverter built in that works as well -- if not better -- than most of the DVD upconverters on the market.

Most flock to LCD TVs despite the fact that they don't compare to plasmas in contrast or color, just because they feature 1080p. The problem of course is that they are viewing their 42-inch 1080p LCD from 10 feet away, which is so far, no human can even perceive the difference in resolution. Do they care that the 1080p TV cost $400 more than the 720p plasma? No, they bought it because they had to have 1080p. Many buy TVs after looking at the fact tag, and never once think to actually look at the TV. The same people that pay $99 for an HDMI cable and throw away the component cable that was in the box. They spend $200 on an HDMI switch so both their upconverting DVD player, over-compressed cable, and Xbox 360 can all be connected via HDMI. Do they ever test out the 3 unused component inputs to see if there is noticeable improvement? No, they don't, 'cause everyone knows digital is always better than analog.

The point is that people will spend more if they believe there is a difference, regardless of whether they can actually see the difference. They won't spend four times more, but they will spend more.

So while we all wait for instant access to whatever we want, whenever we want, we hold on to the shiny little disc that we know is better, even though we can't really tell it's better. We'll pay the extra $50 to $100 a player (eventually) and $5 to $10 more per disc, to get the most out of the 1080p HDTV we just bought. And we'll be happy while we do it, and with no regard to the technology analysts who predict that physical mediums are dead. The very same analyst who probably predicted HDTV would never take off. [END]

My Comment -

I have the Pioneer 50" KURO 768p plasma (model#5080HD, which accepts all HD signals, including 1080p/24hz, which is converted in the 'advance' mode of the set's Pure Cinema movie option to 768p/72hz - a multiple of 24fps not requiring 3:2 pulldown), and ANYTHING I view on this set looks fantastic from my viewing distance of 10 feet. My main viewing is both Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs (usually in 1080p/24 mode), Upconverted DVD (either 1080i/60 or 1080p/60), and also legacy LaserDisc content (425i/60).

At 10 feet, on a 50" Kuro Plasma, the difference in resolution between 768p and 1080p is really minimal. Also, there's little difference between 1080i and 1080p resolutions on a TV which provides accurate deinterlacing and scaling (like Pioneer). For some TVs that don't deinterlace properly, you will notice a softer image if sending the set interlaced signals, so in this case it's best to send progressive signals from your disc players (either 480p, 720p, or 1080p).

By the way, this Pioneer plasma was given top honors in a recent Home Theater Magazine Technology face-off - INFO HERE - "If you're thinking a 1365x768 resolution Pioneer Kuro could beat competition featuring 120Hz technology, 1080p resolution and all the other latest buzzwords in high definition -- you'd be right. Deep black levels made the difference, boosting the PDP-5080HD over the second place Panasonic TH-50PZ750."

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Mar 3, 2008]

All you mingers that cant pick the difference between p and i should probably invest in VHS, as your eyes are obviously in need of spectacles, and your brain in need of a tune up. and to you rent-a-panel crowd (viewing for A HALF HOUR at best buys-ooooooooh, how conclusive) how where the panels connected?? in most cases (my store included) we connect to ALL panels using cheap component video @1080i @50hz, because currently even a six way hdmi or dvd-i splitter (i neeed 35) is $1400!! so you could easily make the assumption there are no obvious differences. But run both panels from hdmi-1.3, one panel native 1080i, and one panel 1080p and the results are obvious. I have a aquous HD generator, an LG hd generator and currently thats what i show to my customers when, like you they still need convincing! Also its just not about the clarity, do the maths on your calculator (If you even understant how to do the equasions) and you will realise having only 1366 or 1024 horizontal lines limits your grey scale gradiation. its simple maths you bunch of twats. and why be on this forum if you see things differently? just trade in for a $100 sony "upscaler" and be done with it.
By the way, because of the protocols of HDCP when hdmi is used it bypasses the video scaler inside ALL PANELS! yes the picture is RE-SIZED, but not up-scaled. You need an external processor capable of very complex algoriths (example-faroudja dcdi cells) for this. you all are talking out of your arses and few have enough time selling or installing panels to back yourselves up!

[Post edited by toshibaman on Mar 3, 2008]

Lot's of stuff going on, even after Blu's victory.

Good info about BR being the next DVD. I guess I can't disagree with that. Certainly BR has a much better chance at becoming main stream than LD ever did, and that's because it's the same size as DVD. Size is what sold me on DVD - I could never picture myself handling a LD because of it's size (mainly because I didn't think it was safe to handle something that big). BR can overtake DVD, but the players have to get affordable and need to function properly. With HD-DVD gone, there is no one to take the lime light away from BR, unless some newer, higher capacity format is released. Of course, it won't necessarily affect BR, because I don't think that studios want to stall the adoption of HD movies. The only thing that could dethrone BR would be a much more versatile media at an affordable price, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

At least I can concede to that, it just bothers me that HD-DVD supporters are ridiculed with asinine comments, simply because we aren't ready to embrace BR yet. Give us some time, we will eventually make the move. Even with BR's triumph, it still makes more sense for me to invest in affordable HD-DVD movies than to purchase an expensive BR player + new movies. Remember, just because some of you guys can afford both formats, it doesn't mean you are any smarter than HD-DVD supporters. At the time of my purchase, it was a deal that I couldn't pass up - had BR released a player for $98, I would've been all over that. My allegiance to HD-DVD was after I bought into it because of it's pricing, and not because I hate Sony (even though they do suck) .

I'm man enough to accept that there's no point in hating BR - I just hate the way it 'won'. All the arguments about capacity and bitrates are so tiring because they don't have to do with BR's victory. People can harp on how all these things made BR the victor, but it's obviously the wrong answer. I know (as well as the majority here) that the PS3 is what saved BR, and not it's touted advantages.

[Post edited by HD_Fanatic on Mar 3, 2008]

by the way, when viewing a comparison in a store, dont trust the sales assistant what res the panels are running. simply turn the panel your interested in off, and when its powered back up it will display exactly what its receiving.

HD, great call, maybe thats what we are dealing with here, i know i dont own lots of coin, and that was why my devotion for HD DVD was drop forged. i still cant afford both. so my only option is to srap around in all the software sales to up my titles on HD. and i will be doing that until they are all gone. And valid point about the fudged "victors" HA! put a HD DVD drive in the 360 @ its release and it would have been GAME OVER!!!!!!!!! (i do emphasise- would have)

toshibaman said -

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"By the way, because of the protocols of HDCP when hdmi is used it bypasses the video scaler inside ALL PANELS! yes the picture is RE-SIZED, but not up-scaled. You need an external processor capable of very complex algoriths (example-faroudja dcdi cells)..."

Care to provide proof for this claim?

To my knowledge, HDCP is applied to the content [and is based on digital-signal security 'hand offs'], not the furthur internal processing by the TV's chip that handles the deinterlacing and scaling. Pioneer does not use Faroudja, but has it's own (undisclosed) proprietary chip. All incoming signals are not just "re-sized", but are SCALED to the set's native resolution, whether 768p or 1080p.

As for visual differences between the two resolutions, AGAIN it depends on your viewing distance. If you can sit within 5 to 8 feet from your display (of whatever size), yes you should be able to notice the difference between 720p & 768p, compared to 1080p panel. But, for most displays up to 50 inches, there is little if any difference in resolution if sitting 10 feet (or more) away from either of the 3 resolutions, as your eye cannot distinguish between the fine details of the smaller size pixels (for 1080p), compared to the slightly-large size pixels of 720p and 768p TVs.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

Nice post, majortom. I do regret lumping you in with the trolls, shills, and Blu nuts that have invaded this site for months. Obviously, you are not an idiot, and I appreciate your arguments. The only problem I have is with your claim that there was never a reason to buy HD DVD over Blu, other than price. Many people, myself included, bought HD DVD not for price (I bought my player before the big price drops), but for functionality. All features on HD DVDs worked from day one, while one can not make the same claim for Blu. Blu always had better specs and more potential, but had a very hard time putting out content that took advantage of these specs. They also had problems early on putting any features on discs at all! Even after a couple of years, Blu is still catching up to HD DVD in terms of interactivity and web enabled content, and it really should never have taken this long to catch up. Blu is becoming a viable option, and I will buy at some point, but there doesn't seem any point in rushing out and picking a player up unless I'm interested in a PS3, which I'm not.

Quote:
By the way, because of the protocols of HDCP when hdmi is used it bypasses the video scaler inside ALL PANELS! yes the picture is RE-SIZED, but not up-scaled. You need an external processor capable of very complex algoriths (example-faroudja dcdi cells) for this.

I sincerely hope no one takes the nonsense above seriously. Even my very old and retired Infocus X1 projector had a Faroudja scaler built in. HDCP has nothing to do with it. DCDi technology is from 1996. We've progressed since then. There are good Faroudja based scalers, but that primitive stuff has been left behind years ago.