Toshiba CEO talks about life after HD DVD

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If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images.

Hmmmmmmm...very interesting...

This dude must have smoked a rock or 2 before making that comment!
If there ever comes day when SD-DVD upconverted looks as good as HD/BR I will be VERY surprised.

The upconversion Nishida's talking about is "Super Upconversion" or Real-Time Super Resolution technique that has been used in astronomy and by intelligence services for decades. CELL's computational power allows real-time super resolution processing of SD video to increase its native resolution to 960p, by fusing 9 frames front and back.

The Super Resolution(aka Super Upconversion) output is truely 960p, and journalists who have seen the demo at trade shows like CEDEC and CES vouched that it really worked. Previously, Super Upconversion was scheduled to appear on Sharp and Toshiba HDTV sets only, but the death of HD-DVD changed all that it is now confirmed that Super Upconversion will come to DVD players as well.

Oh, dear. I see an invitation here for another one of Tim's posts.

John

Hmmm. Very interesting.....

Predicted future of Toshiba's CEO:



[Post edited by Tim Raynor on Mar 3, 2008]

I did some reading on "super resolution" on Wikipedia, which sent me to this link:

http://www.psi.toronto.edu/~vincent/videoepitome.html

Interesting stuff, but this is similar to colorizing old movies, as it will likely create images that were not the intent of the filmmaker. It may be an approximation of a true HD picture, but it won't be a true reproduction as there is visual information that is only being logically guessed at. No thanks.

If you don't like previous DVD "breakthroughs" such as edge enhancement and digital noise reduction (good examples of it here: http://www.cinedrome.ch/hometheater/dvd/dnr/text.html), then I'll bet you won't like "super resolution", either.

Yeah i don't know how well this superconversion will work....kinda sounds like what we refer to as interpolation in the photography world. The bottom line is you can only only make a picture look so good working from a small file....or in this case working with only 480P.

I find it funny that Skyhawk is the first one to laugh. Big Surprise there.

Anyways, this technology is not al that dissimilar to what HDTV already is. Not quite 1080p, but comparable to a native 1080i/720p signal. The scaler onboard the DVD player will bring it up to 1080p. Hindsight 20/20 if the players are affordable, it will sell well. They could possibly still market the product as a High Definition DVD Player. Not a HD DVD player.

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Anyways, this technology is not al that dissimilar to what HDTV already is. Not quite 1080p, but comparable to a native 1080i/720p signal. The scaler onboard the DVD player will bring it up to 1080p.

I don't have the technical expertise to shoot this down completely, but I'm a serious doubter. This also feels like the equivalent of computer-generated rotoscoping. It might look like something appealing on its own, but it won't accurately recreate the original visuals. If you're a purist or true movie-lover, you won't buy SDVDs instead of true HD-mastered versions, but the average viewer might think it's great.

If this comes out, I'll look forward to the comparisons between the true 1080p mastered films and the super resolution output of a SDVD, and I'll be shocked if it really compares. Especially in long shots where every pixel is especially important for providing further details/textures/depth.

> sbmess

You have witnessed the effect of super resolution already. All the satellite captured pics of earth and planets, they are created through super resolution. It is just that Toshiba's version is fast enough to do this in real-time thanks to CELL.

And no, Super Upconversion(Toshiba branded Real-Time Super Resolution) is not about guessing, but computationally fusing nine 480p frames to create single 960p native output. As for why Toshiba didn't speak of this HD disc killer technology until now, they were going to use it only on its own and Sharp's HDTV sets in order not to interfere with HD-DVD, but this is the first time Toshiba CEO confirmed of his intention to bring ths technology to DVD players to deter consumers from going Blu-Ray and stay on DVD instead.

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This also feels like the equivalent of computer-generated rotoscoping. It might look like something appealing on its own, but it won't accurately recreate the original visuals.

The good news is that it works and you can even read the illegible small letters on DVD video after Super Upconverted.

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If you're a purist or true movie-lover, you won't buy SDVDs instead of true HD-mastered versions, but the average viewer might think it's great.

Toshiba's aim is not to stop a small minority of videophils from going Blu-Ray, but the mass of J6Ps from going Blu-Ray by giving DVDs enough PQ boost to keep them on DVD.

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If this comes out, I'll look forward to the comparisons between the true 1080p mastered films and the super resolution output of a SDVD, and I'll be shocked if it really compares.

Again, the goal of Super Upconversion DVD player is not to convince you, but to convince 90% of population known as J6P that the difference is so small that it is not worth paying twice the price for Blu-Ray players and movies.

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Again, the goal of Super Upconversion DVD player is not to convince you, but to convince 90% of population known as J6P that the difference is so small that it is not worth paying twice the price for Blu-Ray players and movies.

Agreed! No doubt about that.

I'm very skeptical that this will accurately compare to the 1080p mastered release, but of course I will check it out when it comes to market. After hearing Toshiba tout their "near-HD" upconversion previously and completely disagreeing with the statement after seeing the results (definitely not "near-HD" compared to Blu-ray/HD-DVD), I will definitely be a skeptic until I see otherwise!

(edited to correct a "url" to a "quote")!

[Post edited by sbmess on Mar 3, 2008]

Can someone tell Raynor to upload a "Super Upconversion" of that THONG! I can't see the brand name. Yes, I do care about them Little Things...

What if you use the super upconvert technology on a Blu-ray or HD DVD source??

phroar!!!!!

Very interesting idea this super conversion.
I can see how it 'could' be done. If you watch a moving image of poor quality (eg. vhs or security cameras) the perceived resolution is much greater than when the image stops. As soon as it stops the image is terrible. This (temporal) pereception, if able to be done for images that are still or slow moving would be a huge improvement. 9 frames may be enough for slow or still images to get some improvement. Moving images would get a HUGE improvement.
I look forward to seeing it.
After watching HD now for many years I balk at watching SD or vhs anymore.

A few weeks ago when the news of Toshiba dropping HD-DVD came out, i expressed that i hoped that they focused in developing and perfecting upconversion DVD players, and here we are... thank you Toshiba! I look forward to these new Super UPconversion DVD players, i'm surely buying one!

This is a smart move from Toshiba, indeed with HD-DVD they may have lost a battle against Blu-Ray, but these Super UPconversion DVD players could make them achieve victory. It's easier and more affordable for most people, to buy a new HDTV set, a Super UPconversion DVD player and use their current DVD movie collection, than to buy a new Blu-Ray player and repurchase/replace their current DVD movie collection with Blu-Ray movies... Toshiba knows this and now doubt they're taking advantage of it.

Many reviewers and experts have agreed that if a DVD movie offers a high quality transfer, enhanced for viewing on HDTV, that was digitally restored and remastered, like most of the current DVD titles availible, no doubt you can achieve outstanding results when upconverting DVD movies on LCD/Plasma TV screens, one can only imagine, at least for now, how a Super UPconverted DVD movie will look like.

Take in consideration that 8 out of 10 don't buy DVD movies, but rather rent them, borrow them, make copies or download them, at least that's what the movie studios have been saying for years, let's take their word on that, and say that from every 1000 people who own a DVD player, 800 don't buy DVD movies, mainly because they aren't willing to spend US$15 on a movie, and preffer to get them almost for free, therefore those people aren't going to invest in Blu-Ray movies, specially when they cost twice of a DVD movie.

Therefore 2 out of 10 have and still buy DVD movies legally, let's say that represents 200 out of every 1000 people, if you take in consideration that in USA during 2007, 4 million Blu-Ray movies and 2.7 million HD-DVD movies were sold, but 1.6 billion DVD movies were sold in the same year, which tells us that from every 1000 people, only 1 at most bought Blu-Ray or HD-DVD movies.

I bring this into the subject, because Toshiba's goal is to satisfy the needs of 999 of every 1000 people around the world, providing Super UPconversion DVD players so that DVD users, regardless if they buy DVD movies, rent them, borrow them, make copies or download them, they can achieve outstanding results that could surpass what a current upconversion DVD player does.

[Post edited by genbar dardren on Mar 4, 2008]

And with "Super Upconversion", no need for companies to supply broadcast HD channels when they can simply offer a wider selection of NTSC/PAL channels instead!

In all seriousness, it sounds to me like either:

1. Toshiba is once again screwing over HD DVD folk (folk = suckers according to Toshiba?).
2. Toshiba is exhibiting the classic "sour grapes" syndrome.

I pick #2.

Definitely a case of sour grapes.

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And with "Super Upconversion", no need for companies to supply broadcast HD channels when they can simply offer a wider selection of NTSC/PAL channels instead!

Actually Super Upconversion originates from Toshiba's project to improve PQ of standard definition(OTA NTSC, Cable, DVD) source materials displayed on its(and Sharp's) latest 1080p HDTV sets.

Now that HD-DVD is dead, Toshiba's bringing the tech over to DVD players to deter average consumers from going Blu-Ray.

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Now that HD-DVD is dead, Toshiba's bringing the tech over to DVD players to deter average consumers from going Blu-Ray.

Won't happen...period. Do you think the average joe consumer will know the difference between a $45 'regular' upconverting DVD player, and a Toshiba 'new' upconverting DVD player??? Nope. Makes no sense for them to spend money on that, they will start building Blu Ray decks to make some real money.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Mar 4, 2008]

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Won't happen...period. Do you think the average joe consumer will know the difference between a $45 'regular' upconverting DVD player, and a Toshiba 'new' upconverting DVD player??? Nope. Makes no sense for them to spend money on that, they will start building Blu Ray decks to make some real money.

Not really. If that $45 'juiced up' box shows visual candy, on par with a blu-ray movie (I'm saying really close, but not entirely similar)... the marketing may just work. Spending $45, instead of $400 IS MUCH BETTER... and cheaper, given the video output.

Not to mention having a current DVD format supported, with much much larger library collection than blu-ray.

If Toshiba DOES pull this off, and the visual similarities ARE close enough, it would be the BIGGEST COMEBACK for the company. DVD movies WILL remain the format of choice, over expensive Blu-ray. The REAL QUESTION IS: Will it show on retail shelves SOON ENOUGH, before blu-ray gains momentum.

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Won't happen...period. Do you think the average joe consumer will know the difference between a $45 'regular' upconverting DVD player, and a Toshiba 'new' upconverting DVD player??? Nope. Makes no sense for them to spend money on that, they will start building Blu Ray decks to make some real money.

I disagree with you. The average consumer still,

a. Can't really tell that much difference between high def and standard def
and
b. Can't or won't spend $400 or more on a fancy dvd player.

Those are the biggest obstacles to major adoption of high def discs. If you don't believe it just go to your biggest local electronics store and ask people as they come in and walk by the high def aisles.

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Won't happen...period. Do you think the average joe consumer will know the difference between a $45 'regular' upconverting DVD player, and a Toshiba 'new' upconverting DVD player??? Nope.

And those avergage joe consumer you describe will stay with DVD, which makes Toshiba money. That's the goal of Super Upconversion DVD players, to keep 95% of consumers on DVD by any means.

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they will start building Blu Ray decks to make some real money.

There is no money to be made on hardware itself unless you are the IP holder.

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If Toshiba DOES pull this off

Rest assured that it works. This tech has been demoed on HDTV sets for about a year now.

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and the visual similarities ARE close enough

Very close perception wise.

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it would be the BIGGEST COMEBACK for the company. DVD movies WILL remain the format of choice, over expensive Blu-ray.

That's what Toshiba wants.

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The REAL QUESTION IS: Will it show on retail shelves SOON ENOUGH, before blu-ray gains momentum.

5th gen HD-DVD players due out 2009 spring was scheduled to feature Super Upconversion. Now Toshiba's moving the work over to DVD players instead.

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Spending $45, instead of $400 IS MUCH BETTER... and cheaper, given the video output.

What I'm saying is you can ALREADY buy upconverting DVD players for $45...whether they are as good as the NEW Toshiba one or not is irrelevant, people willing to settle for DVD quality won't care. Why spend money researching, producing, and marketing a better version of an existing $45 upconverting player??

As for $400 Blu players, I GUARANTEE you that the price will drop by Christmas. People will start to buy Blu now that the format war is over.

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Can't or won't spend $400 or more on a fancy dvd player.

Don't forget the SHOCK when average consumers need to add $$$ for a NEW HDTV. Total bill for both will set one back under 2 grand.

I still believe Toshiba's claim is a longshot, but I tell ya... if that 'juiced up' box shows up on the retail shelves by year's end (and it costs around $50 to $100), I'd buy one for REVIEW. If the visuals are good enough for me, compared to my ps3 blu ray (and also comparing the CHEAP price).... Yeah, I'll buy some more.

Best of all: Blu ray prices will be FORCED to lower its prices down, to compete with this new box.

Toshiba should be really careful to lose another battle. While I agree that upconverting DVD's can look REALLY good at the end of the day a 1080P/24 movie will always look better. Then there's the added bonus of HD audio tracks like Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD which regular DVD's will never have.

How much better can these "super upconversion" players be than existing upconverting players? Plus how much will they cost. Bluray players will drop in prices eventually (probably by Christmas) you can get movies for cheap on places like amazon and Ebay.

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Don't forget the SHOCK when average consumers need to add $$$ for a NEW HDTV.

xplaytendo take a walk into your local Best Buy and tell me the percentage of HD sets vs CRT's in the showroom....nuff said.

[Post edited by Bosshog7 on Mar 4, 2008]

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How much better can these "super upconversion" players be than existing upconverting players?

http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/toshiba-cell-broadband-video-processor

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It's always been said by us that you cannot take standard definition, upconvert it to HD and expect the same results as if you had an actual HD source. With that said, the cell processor technique demoed by Toshiba - in real-time so as to not be mistaken for a parlor trick - came pretty darn close. Detail popped and edges cleared up without the typical artifacts you'd expect. We did notice some jaggy artifacts on some of the material, but overall this is a technology that is extremely promising. We're hoping it debuts sometime by 2009, but there was no specific release information given from Toshiba on the official timeline.

I read even more glaring praises from Japanese articles, like how he was able to read previously illegible letters from super upconverted DVDs.

Anyone thinking about simple upconversion will be shocked when they face Super Upconversion.

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Plus how much will they cost.

Much less than Blu-Ray players according to Nishida.

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Bluray players will drop in prices eventually (probably by Christmas)

BDA has no intention of dropping prices. I once posted a translation of Sony VP complaining that even $500 was too low for a Blu-Ray player to Japanese press. A simple cost analysis shows that it costs $150 to put together a Blu-Ray Profile 1.1 player. Throw in Blu-Ray's infamous $60 royalty and manufacturer profit, and it's really really hard for Blu-Ray players to drop below $300 MSRP.

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you can get movies for cheap on places like amazon and Ebay.

Have you not been checking out Amazon and Best Buy movie prices? They are going up 15~20%.

[Post edited by Deadmeat on Mar 4, 2008]

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xplaytendo take a walk into your local Best Buy and tell me the percentage of HD sets vs CRT's in the showroom....nuff said.

What the hell are you talking about? What crt? Did I mention anything about crt?

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 4, 2008]

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xplaytendo take a walk into your local Best Buy and tell me the percentage of HD sets vs CRT's in the showroom....nuff said.


What the hell are you talking about? What crt? Did I mention anything about crt?

You didn't....but you DID say 'Don't forget the SHOCK when average consumers need to add $$$ for a NEW HDTV'

What I'm saying is....you can pretty much ONLY buy HDTV's now, and they are selling like hot cakes. Old school crap TV's with poor resolution don't sell anymore, and that's why people will start to buy hi def sources...especially when they figure out that an SD source usually looks like crap on their HDTV.

Boss,

Check out Wal-Mart. They still sell a ton of old-style, standard-screen TVs, esp. smaller models, as well as new, bigger, widescreen ones.

John

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They are going up 15~20%.

Where did you hear this was going to happen? Oh my... should I then load up on $12.99 to $22.99 Blu-rays from Amazon now then? When is this supposed to happen?

Ummmmm so if Toshiba had this Super Upconverting technology and it looks THAT good, why did they release HD DVD in the first place?

Well regardless of how I think HD DVD exclusive supporters should feel about Toshiba crapping the "Look and Sound of Perfect", if Toshiba's past success of marketing the HD DVD format is any indication, I'd say their chances of confusing the public more than they already are with these silly upconversion claims are less than stellar.

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Ummmmm so if Toshiba had this Super Upconverting technology and it looks THAT good, why did they release HD DVD in the first place?

1. HD-DVD predates Super Upconversion by 4 years.
2. HD-DVD adds additional patents to DVD patent pool.
3. HD-DVD has data storage and delivery uses in addition to video.

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if Toshiba's past success of marketing the HD DVD format is any indication, I'd say their chances of confusing the public more than they already are with these silly upconversion claims are less than stellar.

Which is fine by Toshiba. As long as consumers stay with DVD and not go Blu-Ray, Toshiba wins.

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Which is fine by Toshiba. As long as consumers stay with DVD and not go Blu-Ray, Toshiba wins.

Their "Super Upconversion" hype won't influence the market one way or the other.

I think the average consumer will stay with DVD for the next several years regardless of what Toshiba does. I'm sure DVD sill be sitting beside their Blu-ray counterparts for at least the next 10 years. However, once J6P has their HDTV finally, after a couple years he'll start to notice that the Blu-ray titles cost the same to rent at the video store as the standard DVDs. For the higher income demographic that actually buys a disk or two each year, it's a bit of a no-brainer to pay $5.00 more for the Blu-ray version.

Blu-ray (like it or not) is our sole high definition media format, and Sony along with the BDA have the clout and the war chest to market the hell out of this over the coming years, espeically as the adoption of HDTV grows.

It does come off as very disingenuous of Toshiba to first promote their HD-DVD player upconversion as "near-HD quality" once Blu-ray got the upper hand and now basically say that those lovely HD-DVD discs they were once promoting are now basically pointless. Not that every other electronics conglomerate hasn't taken a similar approach themselves at some point...

On the contrary, when the average user that preffers DVD, gets to own a HDTV set will also preffer getting a Super Upconversion player. You have to realize that outside USA, people aren't buying Blu-Ray players and movies, but rather buying upconvert DVD players for US$100 for their new HDTV set. Also the small percentage of DVD users that actually buy movies legally, are prefering DVD movies.

Outside USA, Blu-Ray titles costs US$30-40 each, that's twice than current prices for DVD titles, also Blu-Ray players costs at least US$800, and prices aren't dropping soon as Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic, etc. have to deal the high manufacturing costs for quite some time, specially with their profit losses from the past HD war. Recently Sony stated that they won't reduce the prices for their Blu-Ray players, even PS3, and promotions like BOGOs, get X number of movies free with the player are over.

USA is facing recesion, and when USA gets a flu, the rest of the world gets neumonia, if the average USA consumer can't or isn't willing to spend so much money in Blu-Ray players and movies, no doubt in the rest of the world Blu-Ray has no chance of becaming mainstream any time soon, in a world dominated by DVD users, and most of them don't buy movies, but rather download and rent them or get copies almost for free.

Take in consideration that outside USA, things aren't looking good for the rental business, in several countries video rental stores have gone banckrupcy and force to close, mainly because people are downloading or buying copies of the movies for less than US$2, because they're not willing to pay the price for buying or renting them.

The BDA group and the movie studios were the ones telling us that HD-DVD was pointless, and that you should preffer the DRM riddled Blu-Ray format, what Toshiba did was withdraw from HD-DVD since they didn't have enough support from the movie studios, to sustain the format if they couldn't provide enough movies to go along with the player.

In the other hand instead of forcing on us a new HD format, Toshiba has been working for years to provide consumers a high quality picture on their products, to satisfy all user's needs. Before it's demise, they were working on a disc that contained a SD and HD version on a movie, and currently their HD-DVD players provide full specs and one of the best upconverter in the market.

Toshiba also has been working to develop Super Upconversion, and planned to implement it on their HDTV sets, maybe they even planned to implement it on their HD-DVD players also, but now with the demise of HD-DVD, they will implement it on their DVD players as well, so that a wide range of users, will have their needs satisfied for a HD quality picture, since Super Upconversion will not only benefit DVD movies, but also SD and HD TV broadcast, videogames, even downloaded movies.

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What I'm saying is....you can pretty much ONLY buy HDTV's now, and they are selling like hot cakes. Old school crap TV's with poor resolution don't sell anymore, and that's why people will start to buy hi def sources...especially when they figure out that an SD source usually looks like crap on their HDTV.

Ok, I see where you're getting at. Understood & I'm not contesting the HDTV shelves, but what I was saying was: The consumer shock when they find out, after buying a $400 blu-ray player, that THEY STILL NEED TO BUY a HDTV set. Neither a regular dvd player, or upconverter, required a new TV.

Blu ray demands ADDITIONAL EXPENSE for those starting from scratch. DVD's & upconverters don't. Just the DVD/upconverter.

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Ummmmm so if Toshiba had this Super Upconverting technology and it looks THAT good, why did they release HD DVD in the first place?

Maybe to DELAY the blu ray momentum, until they can get this 'juiced up box' in the final stages... Yeah, that's an EXPENSIVE gamble... sure, that conspiracy will hold water.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 4, 2008]

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Toshiba also has been working to develop Super Upconversion, and planned to implement it on their HDTV sets, maybe they even planned to implement it on their HD-DVD players also

Like those 51GB HD DVDs that were supposed to appear last year without any player incompatibilities I bet

If Toshiba can come up with an upconverter that beats a Silicon Optix Realta HQV based outboard processor for less than $2,000, I'll consider that pretty good because it will have at least put the high-end processing chip set manufacturers and the dozens of companies branding products around them out of business.

Meanwhile, I'll just enjoy my HD

Thats a crock of shit. Now Toshiba wants people to buy into the OVERATED UPCONVERTED DVD players. Man Toshiba let it go, you got DRY GULCHED and all of the HD DVD supporters got burnt. All because you did not want to play the game. So now you want us to buy into a SUPER UPCONVERT LMAO!!!
I tell you what, you put an internal George Forman Grill in the thing and I will buy it. Other than that, I am trying to figure out what I am going to do with all my HD DVD junk I got setting around, thanks to you.

Sorry guy's, this one just really pissess me off.

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Sorry guy's, this one just really pissess me off.

I can understand that. But you should know about the whole "Asian Face" culture that I know of way too deeply. I hate to say it, but most Asian cultures including the Japanese have this thing where appearance and pride mean everything. It's common that people suicide because their family's name gets tarnished over some little thing. It's not about being poor or rich, it's about what your peers think of you. It all sounds superficial I know, but this goes much more deeply than I can explain. English has no words for it.

It isn't a first that Asian corporations, celebrities, and politicians exhibit such behavior... in fact it's a given in this sort of situation. They aren't crapping on HD DVD supporters - just trying to save face the best they can which is a better alternative than having the entire BOD and executive branch of the company hang themselves from shame. I wish I were exaggerating here... but it's a factor I know too well. But like I said, it goes deeper than what you think and I don't believe it's something to be ashamed of. It's been a positive influence on people that have kept marriages together, kids in school, and driven people to excellence. It's a two-sided cultural trait with both negative aspects and positives.

It's never going to get results like a native HD transfer will.

Ok, for slow moving scenes I can picture the algorithm picking out as much information as possible from multiple frames and reconstructing a higher resolution one. BUT for quick moving frames or scene shifts, there's f all the "super resolution" can do.

Toshiba, stop with this BS.

The rest of the world is not suffering outside of the United States. Canada's economy is kicking the crap out of us right now. Canadians by far have more expendable income than any other coutry in the world. Maybe that's why Skyhawk is contantly gloating!

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Sorry guy's, this one just really pissess me off.

Why should this 'super upconvert' piss you off, it's not even out yet? Did it hurt in some FINANCIAL way? What makes you assume that this new product will not work, have you beta tested the box already?

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It's never going to get results like a native HD transfer will.

Well THAT'S A REVELATION... thanks for stating the obvious. No one is claiming that it's a HD player.

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Ok, for slow moving scenes I can picture the algorithm picking out as much information as possible from multiple frames and reconstructing a higher resolution one. BUT for quick moving frames or scene shifts, there's f all the "super resolution" can do.

Again... have you beta tested Toshiba's new technology? Where are you basing this conclusion?

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Toshiba, stop with this BS.

I think we can all assume WHERE THE BS IS ACTUALLY COMING FROM...

xplaytendo,

No one said this superconversion player is an HD player? Well, the CEO of Toshiba has this to say: "
If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images". The implication is that Toshiba's upconverting tech is so good that it's equivalent to HD-DVD, and thus sounds like he's now trying to downplay the huge image quality delta between SD and HD discs. Well I guess he's right in a way, some consumers can't even tell DVD images from HD-DVD images...but for the rest of us who have decent eyesight (or wear corrective glasses/contacts) and sit within a reasonable distance from our HDTVs, the difference is clear.

Have I tested this specific superconversion technology? No, but I've seen results and comparisons of similar tech, and have some understanding of DSP and imaging. Let me give you an example of why I think this tech has some serious flaws. Like I said, it is possible to extract extra information from multiple frames containing a lot of common data, to reconstruct a new frame with higher resolution than default. But a film is a bunch of moving images, and is put together in edits and cuts. Under ideal conditions, slow panning shots and relatively static shots (dramas etc) will probably benefit the most. As a worst case scenario, fast moving scenes and images between edits (action movies), where there is less common image data between frames will not benefit from this technology. Why? Because there isn't extra data to make a higher resolution frame. There simply isn't a way to accurately recreate the lost data. So in this case, regular upconversion takes place. Regular upconversion can only rescale the image and do some cleaning up to refine lines in the image on data that is there. It can sharpen details in a frame but cannot add any to it.

edit: here's a one page slide of Hitachi's version of super resolution conversion
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/global/news_pdf_e/crl061003nrde_super_resolution.pdf

Believe me, if Sony were they one to do this if they lost the format war I'd still call this BS as BS.

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 5, 2008]

YCH, I understand the specs behind 'upconversion', & the consumer perception (or lack thereof) between hd & upconverted video. Whether the $400 blu ray pricetag, is worth the 'perception' over a $50 upconverter player... is a matter of taste, and LARGELY IN PART- a matter of economics (does the average consumer, in RECESSION TIMES would consider the $400 box, or the $50-$100 'upconverter, providing NEAR-HD quality video?).

What I don't understand, is the assumption by some posters in this board, that a product WILL NOT WORK, even before the product is released to consumers! This is BASELESS assumption, no matter how PREVIOUS items (of similar functionality) were reviewed in the past. The item is not out yet. Give it time to arrive on retail shelves. Let everyone test it and review it. Then make your conclusion.

Is that so hard to do?

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They are going up 15~20%.

Skyhawk wrote:

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Where did you hear this was going to happen? Oh my... should I then load up on $12.99 to $22.99 Blu-rays from Amazon now then? When is this supposed to happen?

HD DVDs demise seem to push Blu-ray prices up

What's New
By Henning Molbaek
FIRST ONLINE Mar 5, 2008

New data shows that the price of Blu-ray players has a upward trend after HD DVDs demise.

The data comes from pricegrabber.com that can show the average price of a given player on a given time.

TG Daily collected the data which shows a upward trend for Blu-ray players.

On January 1st 2008 (Before Warner chose Blu-ray) the average price of a Panasonice DMP-BD30K player was $401. On March 2nd it was up at $495. The Sony BDP-S300 shows a similar trend with a January price of $307 and a March price of $386. Many of the players were also sold with free Blu-ray movies in January but these offers has ended as well.

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/hd-dvds-demise-seem-to-push-blu-ray-prices-up/5310

Skyhawk wrote:

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Like those 51GB HD DVDs that were supposed to appear last year without any player incompatibilities I bet

Do you have any credible links to back this up Skyhawk? I would love to see it and please don't link me to bluray.com or bluraystas.com. Nowhere has it been claimed that these 51GB HD DVD disks would not work on current HD DVD players. In fact since it was approved by the DVD consotium, which includes Disney, so I would guess that it WOULD work with current HD DVD players. I doubt very much they would approve a 51GB HD DVD disk that would require new players. This is not the BDA we're talking about here, it's the DVD consortium which is SLIGHTLY more reputable.

Well the thing is I want HD disc media to move forward. I don't like the idea of another obstacle getting in the way of mass adoption of HD discs. The best way to get all studios to quickly release their library on HD discs is to see that consumers buying them by the truckload. At least HD-DVD is a worthy rival against Blu-ray, because each provided similar visual and audio quality. To me, Super-conversion of standard definition media is by far an inferior solution.

HD discs are, bar none, the biggest visual leap in home entertainment in a long time. To a discerning eye, no amount of processing on DVDs will *EVER* make it anywhere as good as a good HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc. I really have to say this once again, for emphasis. For the same good transfer used on a DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray disc, a super-converted video will never ever even come close (to my standards) to the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray version.

Let me first state the strengths of upconversion. In an image with very little texture detail (like faraway building details, or skin texture, fine hairs etc), upconversion of an SD image will do rather well against a HD transfer of the same image. Obviously, this does not occur often in a film. Unless the director is happy to use a soft-focus lens throughout the film, or the film contains a lot of imagery on walls and smooth object. However, on a regular movie with plenty of detail all the time, regular upconversion falls apart, yielding only a slight improvement by producing cleaner lines than regular un-upconverted SD video.

Regular upconversion faces similar problems as enlarging a digital photo. As a photography enthusiast, I have looked into a bunch of different upsampling (ie upconverting) software, and the very best ones are only able to refine lines and detail from a good image. That's it. No extra details. If you're interested, have a look at results from GenuineFractals (it uses fractals to interpolate boundaries and lines). In my opinion it's one of the very best upsampling software for photos there is. It may not look the best for minor upsampling operations, but for big enlargements it yields, perceptually, the most pleasing result, especially on print. And to bring this back to regular video upconversion, a result similar to Genuine Fractals is about the best they can achieve. Example comparison:
Genuine Fractals produce sharp and clean looking lines, but notice that there is no extra detail between the boundaries of those clean sharp lines. Those leaves would have shown a lot more detail if the photo was taken zoomed-in in the first place. Limitations of available data at work.

Super-conversion will do one better than regular upconversion by taking into account multiple images to produce a higher detailed image, but since I've already kinda covered this in my previous post I'll stop here. Some may like to use the astrophotography example as proof that super-resolution works. Well it works so well because static images are very easy to super-upconvert (compared to movies) when you have boatloads of repeat images covering the same area. It's just a much more controlled environment than a movie will ever be.

So, in summary, I'm using my current knowledge and available evidence to predict that Super-Resolution upconversion will yield better results than regular upconversion, but still be way behind a HD-DVD or Blu-ray disc using the same transfer.

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 5, 2008]

Let's not forget the hidef audio you get on HD DVD and bluray. Sound after all is half the experience and although Dolby Digital and DTS do have great sound, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD are much improved.

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As a worst case scenario, fast moving scenes and images between edits (action movies), where there is less common image data between frames will not benefit from this technology. Why? Because there isn't extra data to make a higher resolution frame.

Frames will be analyzed and panned before extrapolation begins.

Super Upconversion is very computatoinally expensive. According to Toshiba, an hour of SD video can be super upconverted in real time on CELL, 3 hours on SpursEngine, and 24 hours on a Core 2 Duo. This is the reason realtime super-resolution technology wasn't available in consumer electronics domain until now.

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Well the thing is I want HD disc media to move forward.

But consumers aren't williing to pay for Blu-Ray prices.

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I don't like the idea of another obstacle getting in the way of mass adoption of HD discs.

Well, Super Upconversion wouldn't take root if Sony and fellow BDA buddies didn't insist on pricing Blu-Ray players so high. But then again, Sony has no choice since a Blu-Ray player does cost a lot to build and Sony has to recoup $1 billion payment to studios(Warner $500 million, Fox $200 million, Disney Unknown)

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The best way to get all studios to quickly release their library on HD discs is to see that consumers buying them by the truckload.

The current mass market price is $17 for new releases. Very few people are willing to pay any kind of premium for Blu-Ray.

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To a discerning eye, no amount of processing on DVDs will *EVER* make it anywhere as good as a good HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc.

Most people don't have discerning eyes. Toshiba CEO does have a point when he claimed most people wouldn't be able to tell Super Upconverted DVD from HD-DVD.

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Toshiba CEO does have a point when he claimed most people wouldn't be able to tell Super Upconverted DVD from HD-DVD.

I don't know why he would say that. That's not exactly an endorsement for HD DVD and they were claiming it was "The Look and Sound of Perfect" and 6 times the resolution of DVD.

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It isn't a first that Asian corporations, celebrities, and politicians exhibit such behavior...

Actually it was Sony that kept dead BetaMax and MD on the market to save faces. Toshiba's speed of exit surprised everyone, calling it very unJapanaze-like.

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in fact it's a given in this sort of situation. They aren't crapping on HD DVD supporters - just trying to save face the best they can which is a better alternative than having the entire BOD and executive branch of the company hang themselves from shame.

No, Toshiba's simply trying to protect its DVD royalty revenue. DVD still accounts for 99% of movie sales, and Toshiba can continue to earn big bucks from DVD royalty for another decade as long as they manage to marginalize Blu-Ray like LD.

By giving consumers Super Upconversion alternative, Toshiba can make it extremely hard for average consumers to see the benefits of going Blu-Ray, and keep them on DVD instead.

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I don't know why he would say that. That's not exactly an endorsement for HD DVD and they were claiming it was "The Look and Sound of Perfect" and 6 times the resolution of DVD.

Well, he should have sad Blu-Ray too.

Super Upconverted output is four times the resolution of DVD. Can average consumers tell them apart?

I'm actually eager to see ideal, typical and worst case results of this 960p Super Resolution. Is it able to effectively produce images same as a 960p image downsampled from a 4K master all the time? I doubt it (*but wait!). But like Deadmeat says, there's so much confusion and lack of understanding going around that regular joes will be make victims of all those of us who heavily favor HD discs over SD discs.

I really, really, hate the idea of DVD dragging along when there is a far superior format around. It's quite a possible outcome that HD discs are affected by all these corporate machinations. Argh.

*Whoa found these on a google search. An intel flyer (I'm sure they picked the best examples - they're pretty static images - but this is pretty impressive)
http://download.intel.com/pressroom/kits/research/poster_Robust_Video_super-resolution.pdf

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 5, 2008]

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Let's not forget the hidef audio you get on HD DVD and bluray. Sound after all is half the experience and although Dolby Digital and DTS do have great sound, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD are much improved.

Absolutely correct, that sound is stellar on both, vs a DVD9 platter. But take also into consideration, that the same folks that are looking for a decent, near-HD upconverter (that may or may not work on this Toshiba box) DOES NOT HAVE THE BUDGET to purchase surround sound speakers PLUS a CERTIFIED (expensive) receiver that will output Dolby TrueHD & DTS HD. To many, including me (but not limited to budget constraint), audio features provided in a DVD9 platter is plenty. I think Toshiba is targeting the MAJORITY of the population that is budget-constrained (or just simply intimidated by these FAST MOVING HI-TECH gadgets... at terribly high prices)... should this item ACTUALLY show its face in our nearest electronic store.

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I'm actually eager to see ideal, typical and worst case results of this 960p Super Resolution.

So do I... and that's about all we can hope for. Until then, assuming that the (unreleased) item is a lemon... is really unfair to justify.

It would seem that MANY from this message board, are ready to POUNCE on this item, as a joke, even before (or even AFTER) it goes on sale. I gotta tell you though, if the price of this 'juiced up' box retails for under $100, and provides NEAR-HD quality video. I'm sold.

As for the 'perception' issue by the masses (on hd vs upconverted video)... THAT IS A MIXED BAG that no one can predict. At the end of the day... PRICE will be the main factor, given economic times.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 5, 2008]

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I really, really, hate the idea of DVD dragging along when there is a far superior format around. It's quite a possible outcome that HD discs are affected by all these corporate machinations. Argh.

http://gizmodo.com/364186/sony-talks-200-blu+ray-players-ps3-and-apple-tv

1. Sony VP confirms $299 is the lowest possible price for this holiday season.
2. $199 is the lowest possible price for 2009 holiday season.
3. No Chinese Blu-Ray players for years. Sony wants Chinese excluded.

The market condition is ripe for Super Upconversion. It is Sony's greed that allows Super Upconversion to take its root.

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The market condition is ripe for Super Upconversion. It is Sony's greed that allows Super Upconversion to take its root.

All is not lost. The same technology can be applied to Blu-rays as well (though it'd take a bunch more horsepower to crunch all that data...and new TVs to display all those pixels lol).

I got excited and made a new post about it.

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3. No Chinese Blu-Ray players for years. Sony wants Chinese excluded.

I currently work in Shanghai and I don't see many chinese people buying legit DVDs. They prefer pirated DVDs...if they buy it at all. Guess only the DVD player market is making some money. HDTVs aren't quite taking off in homes yet either.

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 5, 2008]

The Blu Ray cost (& price cap) & Chinese isolation, is all GOOD 'n DANDY for Toshiba.... but the question remains: HOW SOON WILL THEY ROLL THIS HARDWARE OUT TO CONSUMER'S HANDS? Are we looking at HOLIDAY 08? If HOLIDAY 09 the earliest... that PUPPY BETTER BE REALLY CHEAP!

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I currently work in Shanghai and I don't see many chinese people buying legit DVDs.

This affects US market. No low-cost Chinese Blue-Ray players in the US for a long long time, price pattern follows VHS trend and not DVD trend. Makes a perfect sense since Blu-Ray was conceived as a VHS replacement and not as a DVD replacement.

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but the question remains: HOW SOON WILL THEY ROLL THIS HARDWARE OUT TO CONSUMER'S HANDS? Are we looking at HOLIDAY 08? If HOLIDAY 09 the earliest... that PUPPY BETTER BE REALLY CHEAP!

Toshiba planned to have Super Upconverting HD-DVD players ready by Spring 2009. I don't know how things are adjusted after the demise of HD-DVD, but Toshiba wants it out ASAP.

And the most hilarious part of the conference Blu-Ray players with movie download service built in. That shows even Sony is hedging bets....

FYI... 5/30/08 Update



> Toshiba plans to release Super-Upconversion DVD player "by the end of the year"

~ Toshiba 'gets high resolution' from current DVDs ~

The Yomiuri Shimbun - By the end of the year, Toshiba Corp. plans to release a DVD player capable of producing high-resolution images from regular DVDs, company sources said Thursday.

The planned release of a model compatible with the current DVD format signifies an effort by the major electronic manufacturer to recover from a humiliating setback suffered in March after announcing its decision to withdraw from its HD DVD business, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal meant its defeat by a group of electronics makers, including Sony Corp., striving to promote the Blu-ray DVD format.

Standard DVD format is capable of playing a 350,000-pixel resolution. Blu-ray and other next-generation DVD formats have a resolution of about 2 million pixels, about six times greater than the current format.

Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images.

This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs. Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida said his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray.

Instead, Toshiba intends to compete with the Blu-ray camp by selling DVD players fitted with LSIs at lower prices than those of Blu-ray models.

To achieve this goal, Toshiba will advertise its new player as a device with which consumers can enjoy a broader array of content than is available in the Blu-ray format, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal decision in March marked the end of a six-year competition between the HD DVD and Blu-ray camps. Each was seeking to make its format the global standard.

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-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

You know Jimi, there is such a thing as over doing it.

That one was ok. It gave the press release. It when we get the good info the the 5 or so pictures of girls, of three of four of Princess Leia, that has nothing to do with THX.

As a Tech junkie, I will most likely buy a player. I know they won't be $399 or more.

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As a Tech junkie, I will most likely buy a player. I know they won't be $399 or more.

After all that I have spent on HiDef formats during the past year, Toshiba would be lucky to get any more than a $100 out of me

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That one was ok. It gave the press release. It when we get the good info the the 5 or so pictures of girls, of three of four of Princess Leia, that has nothing to do with THX.

you're right, the post was OK, the problem is he posted the same thing in four or five other threads. I'm sorry, I realize all you other guys find Jimi informative, but last night was f-ing obnoxious!

R U Serious, I see what your saying, but my addiction for electronics is stronger...

Tim Raynor said -

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