Re: Digitalbits says upconverting players don't work

This is not new, upconvert has been with us for a few, and I see no difference. Now Toshiba, who lost this war all on their own, wants to introduce a SUPER upconvert. They should have put their effort into HD DVD and we would'nt even be having this discussion.

I think the current generation upconverting players do a "decent" job only. It certainly makes DVDs look crisper, but the level of detail remains the same.

Super-Resolution upconversion though, should actually *increase* the available visible detail thanks to extra information gleaned from multiple frames of the movie. How well it works all the time remains to be seen. However, under ideal conditions the results seem to be impressive (at least from some Super-Conversion slides from Intel Corp).

BTW, anyone who says it's hard to tell the difference between DVD from a HD-DVD...just what movie were you watching, and how far do you sit from your screen (please do tell the screen size). I find that people generally sit too far from their TVs to appreciate the available detail on the HDTVs. For example, my friend who owns a 40" HDTV oftens sits about 8 feet from his TV. At that distance, HD material looks better but than the same DVD but not overwhemingly so. If I sit say 5 feet away, the improvement is just massive. Not only does the screen fill up more of your vision, the detail is right there in your face. Lovely. I suggest those of you who don't see much of a difference between HD-DVD and DVD to SIT CLOSER. You won't regret it.

BTW the thread title is misleading. Bill Hunt didn't say that upconverting players don't work, he's just saying that upconversion is no replacement for native HD media.

I think there's entirely too much ill-will on these message boards against Bill Hunt and thedigitalbits. That site has been pretty darn honest and spot on for all these years I've been reading it. I remember back in '98 or so when they started championing anamorphic video on DVD...

It only goes to show where some members side on which format... & which 'technology' they believe is DOOMED... even before THAT product comes out. That by itself is premature.

Let the product OUT. Buy it. Review it. Then VENT the conclusion here. Saying that a development of an upcoming 'product' is a waste of a company's time, is irrelevant. As if any of the members here are INVESTED on the vaporware. As if the company manufacturing the box -even care about what people say here. Yes, it's vaporware until I see them on retail shelves.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 7, 2008]

Why do Blu supporters need to say upconverted DVD is "crap", just to make themselves feel better about their investment? I have HD DVD, I will buy Blu soon, and there is certainly a difference. I am watching these movies on a 120" screen through a 1080p projector, so if anyone is going to notice differences, it's me. Background detail is certainly much better in HD, and HD discs are just generally sharper than upconverted HD. This does NOT make upconverted HD crap, it just makes it not as good. I love watching movies in HD, but even at 120", upconverted SD looks good. If you compare them side by side, or if you sit 4 feet from the tv, it doesn't hold up, but what kind of idiot does that?

[Post edited by interplanetaryspy on Mar 7, 2008]

YCH,

Screen size = 65" Mits - ISF calibrated by Craig Rounds THE man for Mits CRT RPTVs.
Viewing distance from screen to front and center seating position = ~9 feet
Movies compared = 300, Transformers, Batman Begins, and Happy Feet (I have a three year old son) *wink*

I am able to easily flip between my Oppo and Toshiba from my seated position. I start one about 30 seconds after the other, so I can watch a small bit, and then flip to watch the same piece on the other player. While the HDM was consistently better, there were times I did not know for sure which source I was on. In those instances, it was always when focus was on closer items, and backgrounds were a bit blurred anyway. But in scenes like the city fight in Transformers, you could definitely see the HDM shine when looking at the detail of the buildings' windows and such. And the panned out shots of all the penguins from a distance in Happy Feet, the individual penguins were much more defined.

Make no mistake, I realize HDM is better, otherwise, I wouldn't continue to purchase movies in it. But our picky eyes are not the majority. For most people, they merely want to watch the movie. We prefer to "experience" it. I just want to drive the point home that a well designed upconverting player WILL satisfy the viewing needs of the average consumer. HDM is NOT as big of a leap in quality that justifies the investment to John and Jane Doe. Adding to that, if Toshiba has come up with a way to match the processing/upconverting capabilities of, for example, a Lumagen device, and package that power into the DVD player itself while keeping costs down, then they are going to sell a lot of players. But cost is going to be a big factor there. The power of a Lumagen doesn't come cheap.

Oh, and I can't move my seats any closer. It would be too much work!!!!

Quote:
HDM is NOT as big of a leap in quality that justifies the investment to John and Jane Doe.

Well said. JP Morgan just made a statement today, that we are officially in a (short) recession.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/07/news/companies/JPMorgan_recession.ap/?postversion=2008030714

Many here in the message board are finicky about their audio/video rig (w/ the budget to back), so we make the most of our setup, but WE only make a SCANT PERCENTAGE of the population. As in 'A SINGLE DIGIT... At the end of the day... does the 'leap' justify the cost, for the Average Jane & Joe?

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 7, 2008]

While I don't have the statistics, the fact that even home theater fans like you can say that up-conversion is "good enough" in light of HD discs does not bode well for the said John and Jane consumer.

This is just one of many things I don't get about the mass market casual/regular consumers. The jump from DVD to HD is probably the biggest digital video quality jump in a long time. Sure everyone values money differently, but it rubs me the wrong way when people say HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray discs' video quality "isn't that much better than DVD." I want to poke their eyes out because they obviously do not value progress when they see it. I mean, since when have we EVER had a 6x jump in spatial video resolution?

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 7, 2008]

Quote:
While I don't have the statistics, the fact that even home theater fans like you can say that up-conversion is "good enough" in light of HD discs does not bode well for the said John and Jane consumer.

This is just one of many things I don't get about mass consumers. The jump from DVD to HD is probably the biggest digital video quality jump in a long time. Sure everyone values money differently, but it rubs me the wrong way when people say HD "doesn't look that different from DVD." I want to poke their eyes out because they obviously do not value progress when they see it. I mean, since when have we EVER had a 6x jump in spatial video resolution?

YCH,

Not once did I say upconversion is good enough. I am merely stating that upconversion is not as primitive as some make it out to be, and that the average person doesn't care. Did I not say HDM is better?

Sure HDM is an outstanding luxury. But we are fanatics. We enjoy the differences while looking for them. But let me give you an example of what the average person sees...

My theater area nicely accomodates 8 to 10 individuals, so I have regular movie nights. I just recently got into HDM, so I had been exclusively running my Oppo. The weekend after I got my HD DVD player up and running, I invited some regulars over to "break it in". We watched Batman Begins. The verdict? They could not tell. I then tossed in the SDVD version into the Oppo and flipped back and forth. The verdict? They thought both pictures looked great. Only after I started pointing out the differences, did they start to see. But that's the point... I had to point it out. And even after that, their unified response was, "But we aren't watching the details in the background." I wanted to slap them all.

So there you have it. Although we know HDM is all that and a bag of premium potato chips, the average person just doesn't care enough.

Griz

Quote:

Not once did I say upconversion is good enough. I am merely stating that upconversion is not as primitive as some make it out to be, and that the average person doesn't care. Did I not say HDM is better?

Sure HDM is an outstanding luxury. But we are fanatics. We enjoy the differences while looking for them. But let me give you an example of what the average person sees...

My theater area nicely accomodates 8 to 10 individuals, so I have regular movie nights. I just recently got into HDM, so I had been exclusively running my Oppo. The weekend after I got my HD DVD player up and running, I invited some regulars over to "break it in". We watched Batman Begins. The verdict? They could not tell. I then tossed in the SDVD version into the Oppo and flipped back and forth. The verdict? They thought both pictures looked great. Only after I started pointing out the differences, did they start to see. But that's the point... I had to point it out. And even after that, their unified response was, "But we aren't watching the details in the background." I wanted to slap them all.

So there you have it. Although we know HDM is all that and a bag of premium potato chips, the average person just doesn't care enough.

Oh I know, I'm not lumping you in with the regular folks. I just expressed my frustration with "regular joes and janes" who don't know jack about stuff, nor care for it. Not that it's really their fault, but sometimes people should be a little bit more perceptive.

Also, if that's a photo of your living room you posted earlier, I can immediately tell already that your 65" TV isn't a big enough TV for those sitting at the back row. To really show the difference to those in the back seat I'd say you should go 90" or something

My friend has a 60" HDTV, and I really wouldn't sit more than 6 feet away. But then I'm super picky like that.

[Post edited by YCH on Mar 7, 2008]