Treat this as Rumor for now... But Micro$oft...

...maybe resurrecting HD-DVD. Last night I made a stop at my local computer store. While I was there the local sales rep for Micro$oft was in the store doing some inventory and showing the owner some new products coming their way. I Overheard the rep mention that M$ might resurrect HD-DVD to save HDi. When the owner had to walk away I introduced myself and asked him some questions about what I had overheard. I explained I am an HD-DVD collector, and how much I love the format etc etc. However, I asked why would microsoft resurrect a format Toshiba will no longer produce parts for, and I also mentioned about Micro$oft going Blu for the XBOX 360. The rep said while they will likely produce a Blu add-on, M$ has millions of dollars invested into the development of HDi, and HDi was designed specifically for home optical disc entertainment. He mentioned Toshiba went into deep into the red with all the price slashing which left them vulnerable for failure. It seems Toshiba was losing $200 per player at the third gen pricing level, in hopes to compete with BR. He further added that Toshiba didn't inform M$ how far in they were until they were 4 days before announcing the death of HD-DVD.

Now I find it hard to believe Microsoft had no idea Toshiba was messing up this badly, and I asked why M$ didn't step in with checkbook open to address the problems before they started hitting the downward spiral. The rep had said that the Warner announcement was a shock because they were set to go red and held it in until the last minute at which no one was in a position to do anything about. He made it out like M$ was the last to know about everything that happened and weren't kept in the loop during this debacle.

Again, I find it hard to believe that the company partly responsible for the functionality of HD-DVD's menu structure and features would be the last to know... but, I have heard goofier things in my 36 years on this earth. So at this point, according to the rep... M$ may try to bring back the HD-DVD format, but I like everyone else, am a realist and can't see how they would resurrect the format at this point as it has been 3 weeks since the announcement, and every B&M store tells everyone HD-DVD is dead.

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M$ has millions of dollars invested into the development of HDi, and HDi was designed specifically for home optical disc entertainment

That would all be interesting, if the above were true. But it isn't.

However, you may find this even more interesting...

HDi is built upon standards that have been used and delivered via streaming IP or HTTP since the early Internet days. HDi was designed purposely for Internet delivery from the ground up, and Microsoft has been trying to get third party CE companies that make set top boxes (Scientific Atlanta for example) to adopt the interactive layer based on ECMAScript, XML, CSS, DHTML, etc. for years without much (if any) success over it's rival implementation based on Sun's Java GEM/MHP.

Microsoft saw HD DVD as a vehicle to gain more industry acceptance for HDi, and if HD DVD won, perhaps have HDi become a standard in all set top boxes and multi-media mobile devices. When Sun saw this, they worked with the BDA to quickly counter Microsoft by selling GEM/MHP to the Blu-ray crowd and calling it BD-Java. Sun and Microsoft were fighting a battle that had NOTHING to do with Blu-ray or HD DVD, as surprise, surprise - Sun's BD-Java was also built upon standards already used in set top boxes and will allow "Blu-ray interactive" features to be made available on cable-based video on demand or via Internet download, and of course used in portable devices.

And Toshiba and Microsoft didn't see anything coming last fall? And why would Microsoft pick Toshiba as its main partner in the formation of "Advanced Interactivity Consortium" last October? The consortium has nothing to do with hardware, and only exists to promote HDi as an interactive content mechanism everywhere EXCEPT on HD DVD disks!

Obviously HDi is still in a "war", but one that has nothing to do with media disk formats, and probably never did have much to do with physical formats. So there ya go... IMO of course.

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Microsoft saw HD DVD as a vehicle to gain more industry acceptance for HDi, and if HD DVD won, perhaps have HDi become a standard in all set top boxes and multi-media mobile devices. When Sun saw this, they worked with the BDA to quickly counter Microsoft by selling GEM/MHP to the Blu-ray crowd and calling it BD-Java.

Microsoft offered HDi to Blu-ray. It was the whole reason for the format war really. Microsoft, intel and HP demanded that blu ray used HDi. If it didn't then they would support HD DVD. If blu ray had decided to use HDi there would not have been a format war. Toshiba would have had to quit right there.

good post Sky

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Microsoft, intel and HP demanded that blu ray used HDi. If it didn't then they would support HD DVD. If blu ray had decided to use HDi there would not have been a format war. Toshiba would have had to quit right there.

Almost... Microsoft had already given it's full support behind HD DVD with HDi before the BDA was approached by HP. I personally don't see how this would have affected the format war though, except that you might consider the HDi technology "Duel Format" if it had been adopted in both HD DVD and Blu-ray. It still wouldn't have changed that fact that Blu-ray was not compatible with HD DVD player hardware, and vice-versa. The only difference it would have made is that HP would have supported Blu-ray exclusively from the start. Perhaps that may have speeded up HD DVD's demise, but I don't think it would have had much of an effect one way or the other. I mean, how many HP computers with HD DVD or Blu-ray players are in consumer's homes now? Certainly not enough to significantly influence media sales IMO.

Here's an old news release on the subject (dating back to late 2005):
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175904,00.html

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on Mar 7, 2008]

Weird, but I had a dream HD DVD made a comeback, and it was Microsoft that used the technology in the Xbox 720! Weird, but probably never going to happen. Anywho, I have two HD Scientific Atlanta IPN receivers at home. I should check if they use HDi.

I can see that happening, M$ actually resurrecting HD DVD.

But not for the reasons you might hope for....

They waited for Toshiba to build a reliable platform and perfect the TL-51 discs, now they can go back and make HD DVD the next generation optical data storage media for PC's.

Three-Layer discs with 51GB/per side, double sided of course.

The can make very good use out of it for data storage, Toshiba would almost give M$ the patents at this point, and NO ROYALTIES PAID TO $ONY.

Engenius, ploy by M$.

Let another company lose their shirt developing a storage technology, M$ scoops it up for pennies on the dollar, NO ROYALTIES, it's a Win-WIN-WIN for M$

Expect that next generation XBOX to come with a built in HD DVD drive, and a Blu ray add-on option as well.

And you called me crazy with my Microsoft and downloads theory???

Great post Sky...

EDIT: Do you think MS actually thinks waaaay into the future? I mean one thing is 5 yrs or less, but more? And if MS wants to make the only allowed disc to be used with windows, well, they have the power, they have the base, they can do whatever they want. And we'll comply. But how much can you invest in HDi? I mean is it worth?

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[Post edited by mvckalel on Mar 7, 2008]

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Do you think MS actually thinks waaaay into the future? I mean one thing is 5 yrs or less, but more?

They sure do. Corporations position themselves to take advantage of new technological trends that could have an effect a decade, or even far beyond a decade into the future.

Actually... Microsoft waits for someone else to develop advanced technology - then they buy them out!

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Do you think MS actually thinks waaaay into the future? I mean one thing is 5 yrs or less, but more?

You are forgetting that this is Micro$oft you are talking about

This is M$ 8-year plan, they already have the feature set and artwork ready for the Windows 14 Operating System(Codename: "JusticeDeptartment"), along with the Intel CoreX26 processor and the 550 Gigs of DDR7 RAM you will need to run it.

Figure Solid State 500TB drives will be in the sub-$100 range then, and your brain will have an embedded neural interface chip that can store 40000 3240p HD movies with lossless video and sound and 7.1 audio tracks in 4 dozen languages.

Blu-ray will only be remembered as a failed flavor of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.

GUAM will have become the US Capitol, and Cuba the 55th State, following Canada becoming the 54th State re-named as North Montana, and President Oprah Winfrey will be campaigning for her second term in Office, but facing a strong battle from North Texico Gov. Dr. Ron Paul, due to her recent Troop surge against the Government of Switzerland because of the recent discovery of their Swiss Army Knives of Mass Destruction.

Oh, and your HD DVD player still works as well as the day you bought it.

Yup, this is the future folks, and Micro$oft will be bringing it to you.

Yet even more ANTI Blu-ray bitterness by VC...

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"Blu-ray will only be remembered as a failed flavor of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream."

Please don't let your personal bad PS3 experience [needed repair] lead to a rejection of Blu-ray Hi-Def - you do a disservice to the format.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

Hendrix, lighten up, its Friday night, have a few beers and relax, maybe laugh a bit, or don't you understand what humor is all about.

Plus Ben & Jerry's already have Wavy Gravy and Cherry Garcia, what's a little Blu Ray flavor gonna hurt you??

Ben & Jerry's is WAY overrated and overpriced.

Here in Texas we love BLUE BELL!

And they've got that word 'blue' in their name too! (hehe)

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

Hendrix, FYI I did get my P$3 back today, the kids watched Ratatouille on it already, and I'm working on running it through the first 2 Terminator movies and Die Hard 1.

So good so far, hopefully this one lives.

I went back to Netflix and already have Independence Day and No Country for Old Men in the Blu ray queue.

They did mean to scratch the case up pretty bad on one corner, but I can live with that as long as it keeps reading discs.

Good God you guys are geeks! See you in the parkinglot later where I'll kick your ass!

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It seems Toshiba was losing $200 per player at the third gen pricing level, in hopes to compete with BR.

All those who have argued at how overpriced the Blu-ray players are should take note of this. It's a fair comment to wait for a Profile 2.0 player that will compare to all the existing Toshiba player features, but those saying they demand a $100-$150 Profile 2.0 player soon have just been spoiled by Toshiba's business plan. Toshiba was losing big cash in order to try to build their HD market position (likely the same as Sony's approach with the PS3), and it had nothing to do with looking out for the well-being of the consumer. Hey, I picked up a cheap A30 too, but that doesn't mean that I expect to pay the same price for a Blu-ray player, as most of the companies are actually trying to make a profit now.

blah blah

I'm glad Blu-ray didn't use HDi, or else we'd have those crappy delayed menus on Blu-ray.

HD DVD was great for it's many useful standardized features. HDi was hardly one of HD DVD's strong points.

I really don't see what M$ could gain from bringing back HD-DVD. There is so much market confusion already, and then for HD-DVDs to go back into stores (with zero studio support mind you)... they would just be setting themselves up for disaster.

"I'm glad Blu-ray didn't use HDi, or else we'd have those crappy delayed menus on Blu-ray." --JPSofCA

Here you've got me stumped. The pop-up (and pop-out) menus on HD DVDs come on almost instantly on my A1 and A35 players. The pop-up menus on Blu-ray are equally quick coming up on my Panasonic BD30. If anything, after selecting an item from a menu, the HD DVD functions seem a little quicker starting up than the BD functions. So, I don't see your point, unless you're experiencing something very different from what I'm experiencing.

John

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All those who have argued at how overpriced the Blu-ray players are should take note of this. It's a fair comment to wait for a Profile 2.0 player that will compare to all the existing Toshiba player features, but those saying they demand a $100-$150 Profile 2.0 player soon have just been spoiled by Toshiba's business plan.

Recognize that if Toshiba was losing $200 per player, that means that retail should have been much greater than $200 per player more (add retailer profit, and figure that with normal CE pricing, their upper end players have an even greater profit margin for them and for retailers). From friends in CE manufacturing, I have heard they were losing between $200 and $300 per player, not counting loss of margin (i.e. every box that went out the door, cost $200 - $300 dollars more than they received for it from their channel).

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Toshiba was losing big cash in order to try to build their HD market position (likely the same as Sony's approach with the PS3), and it had nothing to do with looking out for the well-being of the consumer.

Buying market share rarely works for anything for anything other than video games. There are two big differences. First, no one expects more than one vendor for a games platform, so it means that subsidizing hardware does not prevent others from supporting it (as it did with HD DVD) since they would not have done so anyway. Second, games platform vendors can make $25-$40 a title in royalties from games sold. HD DVD royalties cannot have been anywhere near that (figure at most pennies a disk and maybe tens of dollars a player- were they ever to entice another manufacturer to enter their market).

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Hey, I picked up a cheap A30 too, but that doesn't mean that I expect to pay the same price for a Blu-ray player, as most of the companies are actually trying to make a profit now.

What Toshiba probably did was entice people would not have been early adopters into buying their players. These people are much more bitter with their loss than people who are normal early adopters (who are much more used to buying gadgets that fail, since they buy so many early ones).

While I discount every part of the original poster's story other than he had the conversation and the rep told him that, Toshiba themselves said they were losing money on the players they sold in their press conference.

/carmi

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The pop-up (and pop-out) menus on HD DVDs come on almost instantly on my A1 and A35 players.

It's the almost that I'm referring too. It's that way on my A2.

Although I've never had a "problem" with the short delay, I had always found it noticeable. I haven't experienced a delay with BDJava menus.

JPSofCA,

OK, delete the word "almost" from my message. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the timing of the pop-up menus on HD DVDs and BDs using my players. But I do notice that the HD DVD menus invariably look better. Maybe if you're seeing a slight lag with HD DVD menus, it's because there is more (fancier) information to reproduce on the screen. I dunno. It's not a concern that ever crossed my mind in the two years I've owned HD DVD players.

John

There's only sooo many times you can bash HD DVD...

Especially that he owns a A2. The A2 and A3 are known to be slower, but not that slow. Jason go buy yourself a A35 and see what a HD DVD player can do.