Toshiba, MS, and Panasonic started a working commitee on DVD2 format, recreating HD-DVD experience on DVD

http://www.contentagenda.com/article/CA6539511.html

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At the same meeting, according to a summary posted on the Forum Web site, the committee approved the formation of a new working group (dubbed WG-12) “to study and specify network applications and related network specification of DVD Forum formats, make recommendations for better interoperability and functionality of network-connected DVD Forum specified devices and content and communicate on relevant recommendations with other standard creation organizations.”

What that means in non-Forum legalese, I’m told by sources familiar with the plans, is that the new working group will look for ways to incorporate some of the same next-gen functionality developed for HD DVD into a DVD 2.0 format, including the HDi interactive layer and the advanced network connectivity.

One of the co-chairs of WG-12 is Microsoft, which played a major role in developing those capabilities for HD DVD (the other co-chair is Panasonic).

DVD 2.0 Format Specification

1. Video encoded in MPEG2 SD
2. HD available via Super Upconversion to 960p
3. HDi interactivity
4. Networking
5. Managed Copy
6. Fully backward compatible with existing DVD players.

Basically, Toshiba and Microsoft are trying to recreate HD-DVD experience on DVD via extensions.

That's brutal....can you say Muddy the Waters!!!



I wish these guys would quit trying to reinvent the wheel and get on the Blu bandwagon (speaking as a long time HD DVD supporter).

WG-12 (Network Applications) has been established since last fall.

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I wish these guys would quit trying to reinvent the wheel and get on the Blu bandwagon (speaking as a long time HD DVD supporter).

The beautiful thing about DVD 2.0 is that there would be more than 30 million compatible players ready on the day format is launched they are called Xbox 360s.

And just when BD thought they were home free...Hey, didn't something like that happen to Hillary?

Why MPEG2? MPEG4 requires less space and looks MUCH better.

Do current DVD's use MPEG2? Maybe that's why so they can be used on current DVD players?

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Do current DVD's use MPEG2? Maybe that's why so they can be used on current DVD players?

Exactly. DVD2s can be played on all existing DVD players. But you get HDi interactivity and networking when you put it in Xbox 360 or DVD2 players.

Use of MPEG2 is not a problem as long as encoding bitrate is maximized like SuperBit. Such discs would upconvert very well, to the point of close proximity to Blu-Ray when processed by Super Upconversion.

So you get all the benefits of HD-DVD without the cost of HD-DVD.

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So you get all the benefits of HD-DVD without the cost of HD-DVD.

Not that the cost was anything to look twice at anyway...

Bosshog it's not about being burnt over HD DVD. I think toshiba's big issue that the DVD Forum got ignored when BR was being developed. Frankly Sony and the BDR could careless about the DVD Forum. They are too concerned with their own business. What shocked me was that Panasonic was going to be releasing BR players. Panasonic and Toshiba were stong partners right from the start (DVD). Maybe DVD2 works. Who knows? It sounds appealing. For those that can't afford to make the big jump to BR. A $200 DVD2 player would do. That makes me wonder if our current HD DVD players could read the media. They probably would need a minor firmware update.

I say BRING ON THESE VAPORWARES! Nothing healthier than a GOOD COMPETITION to saturate the market. It's good for us consumer with MORE CHOICES than just one hidef format (even if it's just emulated).

I don't mind checking out the end product... SHOULD IT EVER SHOW UP IN TIME.

Yes thats what they are doing, re-inventing the wheel. What they should be doing, is working with all the people who bought into HD DVD technolody. No, now they want to hit you in the pocket again, um re-inventing the wheel. Again what a joke from Toshiba. Hows that saying go, shame on you............

By the looks of it. This stuff is going to could hit shelves by september/october. This was the first step to making the format upgrade legit! Toshiba really plays by the rules! With Panasonics cooperation, Toshiba has some actual support right now. I was thinking from a programming side. It would not be all that dissimilar from what was involved with HD DVD. The file structures could pretty much remain the same, all that would differ would be a table of contents change, and the files assciated with HDI interactivity. It would almost work as a duplicates of files. Regular root menu file for DVD, and edo files for HDi. I could be totally way off and totally wrong. But Paramount, Universal and WB should be able to adopt the information in minutes.

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No, now they want to hit you in the pocket again, um re-inventing the wheel.

Not really. First DVD2 players would be 30 million Xbox 360s and one million firmware-updated HD-DVD players. No need to buy new players.

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HD DVD players could read the media. They probably would need a minor firmware update

My guess is it should, as it already upconvert DVD's. I hope DVD2 takes off soon as I won't have to fork out $500 for a BD player, I really like my A30.

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re-inventing the wheel

Re-inventing the wheel is too soon to say, unless they release an unfinished product and then release a newer version the following year.

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now they want to hit you in the pocket again

How can that be? Is anyone buying a new profile?
Also anyone with a BD player could benefit from this as well. All new releases should be around $20 to $25 mark.

[Post edited by enc66 on Mar 12, 2008]

What they should do, is make anything new compatable with all the HD DVD players, so we won't have to fork out anymore cash.

Millions of DVD 2.0 ready players. X-Box 360s.

LOL you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. You b!tch and moan about the PS3 not being a real Blu-Ray Player and that “I would never buy a game machine to play movies on”.

What I find so funny is that TOSHIBA already got shafted once for being in bed with MS and now they want to do it again? MS will do anything to push HDi. If a Blu ray add on for XBOX 360 is in the future than why continue to push HDi, Blu ray will certainly not support it. If I were a share holder of TOSHIBA stock I would be concerned. All this continued investing in technology that obviously has not only allowed the company to break even but also take huge losses.

Like Bosshog said they are trying to reinvent the wheel. Also will this format be in true HD? Humm.. You can barely get the 360 to play games let alone a DVD on steroids. NOOOOO thank you, I'll stick with my 1080p and HD audio movies. I did'nt invest in HD to compromise. When did MS sell 30 million 360 units?

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My guess is it should, as it already upconvert DVD's. I hope DVD2 takes off soon as I won't have to fork out $500 for a BD player, I really like my A30.

Ditto. I too really like my A-35. Things could get very interesting this summer and beyond. I don't think BD saw this coming. Now, most likely, will probably hold off on my BD player purchase until this plays out.

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What I find so funny is that TOSHIBA already got shafted once for being in bed with MS and now they want to do it again?

To protect DVD royalty. Unlike HD-DVD, Toshiba doesn't need to subsidize DVD2 format.

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If a Blu ray add on for XBOX 360 is in the future

There is no Blu-Ray drive for Xbox 360 or Xbox 3. Toshiba has shown an willingness to extend DVD format with this DVD2 initiative. This means quad-layer high-density 24 GB DVD based on red-laser should be coming, readable by $15 drives.

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than why continue to push HDi,

Because it works now unlike broke BD-Java?

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When did MS sell 30 million 360 units?

That's the estimated installed userbase by the time DVD2 launches.

tony grab a 360 and stop reading old articles.

lol, more of this microsoft evil empire crap.

this panasonic, MS, tosh is ok, but they dont own any studios.

oviously is not high def. as the specs say, but bluray will hate anything stealing their thunder. I think is funny these people have the money to mess with other companys. I mean whats there to do, sit and watch? I would be doing the same thing.

Good old competition. better for us. haha some of you posters are funny. hilarios

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Because it works now unlike broke BD-Java?

How is BD-Java "broke"? It is a complex programming language with which numerous applications could be created. Sky is the limit with the number of ways it could be implemented within Blu-ray. So, in that regard it is superior to the simplicity of HDi, which by the way is just a browser extension.

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Good old competition. better for us.

Well said, Kuc. The only one getting 'hurt' by this, are (of course) the 'other' format. If this 'new' product has teeth when it goes retail... nothing but LOWER PRICES on BOTH SIDES to attract our attention, for both formats- AND THAT IS ALWAYS GOOD.

Of course, the other group getting 'hurt' by anything that may resemble A THREAT to the 'other' format, are the FANBOYS. I could care less about THEM.

I'm just here watching the view, and waiting for the chaos to ensue.... PRICE WARS!

I'd rather have blu-ray actually working and fully compatible with its 1080p video than the 'new' DVD...sounds like the crappy 'the new AT&T'...

Yet another format? I mean, is basically the same thing, but it's not going to be fully compatible with the millions of DVD players already in homes throughout the US...

the 360 has sold about 17 million consoles. Talk about re-inventing the numbers!
secondly, price wars ARE a good thing, when you talk about commodities. Relatively new technology based price wars will only ensure that nobody buys either format, leading to price dumping and eventually death of a format. That is all. If all that means to you is a few cheap dvd's then please kindly restrain yourselves from posting about business and figures and marketing strategy.

DeadMeat, here are some reasons why I don't think that this will take off.

It's caught between a rock and a hard place, and when I say this I mean. The Rock, It's not HD PQ and not HD audio and if I understand you correctly only XBOX 360 and HDDVD owners with firmware updates will be able to take advantage of this. Alot of people here don't even like the fact that you can use a VGC to play movies and slightly over 1.2 million give or take have HDDVD players, so where does that leave all of those with upconverting DVD players.


Now the Hard Place, HD-VMD, another DVD format that uses the red laser that at least gives you 1080p PQ and can hold between 20 and 25 gigs per disk (I can't quite remember) and players start at $150, and currently available NOW.

And then there's the format killer issue it's self, the one HDDVD fell victim to and that's STUDIO SUPPORT. Can the movie be protected. Everybody knows how easy it is to download decryption software and the DVD format is already familiar to sofware hackers.

Toshiba should make a Blu ray player that puts anything that SONY could ever dream of to shame, and end this and stop waisting investors money.

[Post edited by tony1569 on Mar 12, 2008]

Tony, hopefully you meant 'consumer' instead of 'investors' money...since, you know, most of us are only consumers who spend money, not get any from Sony...well, most of us...

Especially the consumer, but the way TOSHIBA is acting I would'nt hold my breath on them coming around to making a Blu ray players.

Kuco, yes, MS is the evil empire.

I see the future... I see the future of this thread SURPASSING page 12! All because of a vaporware.....

Geez folks.... could you keep it lite! Everybody's an expert on how this will make it or brake it for good ol' Tosh (and company)- when the box isn't even out yet!

Do yourselves a favor. Buy it when it comes out. Try it. Review it. If you don't like, return it! If you do... good for you. Until then, this thread is an excercise in FUTILITY! .... Well sure! I didn't say that I was the exception to the rule!!!!

I'm a whore for new technologies as the next poster on this board....

mvc by wasting investors money on unnecessary and impractical "revenge" tactics, they are basically wasting (or trying to waste) our money.
If they spent investors money in a good way and provided a price war within the BR market, then surely we would be all the merrier.

hey xplay, im not a whore for new tech! I'm a whore for proven reliable tech that undercuts other competitors while mainting a good marketing strategy and keeping me sated with trust in the products lifetime.

I'm nothing like the next poster, who pays for sex.

[Post edited by theprof00 on Mar 12, 2008]

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hey xplay, im not a whore for new tech! I'm a whore for proven reliable tech that undercuts other competitors while mainting a good marketing strategy and keeping me sated with trust in the products lifetime.

Easier said considering ANONYMITY on this board. You remind me of a CERTAIN POLITICIAN.

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I'm nothing like the next poster, who pays for sex.

That too... especially THAT.

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mvc by wasting investors money on unnecessary and impractical "revenge" tactics, they are basically wasting (or trying to waste) our money.

With the exception of being the investor, how are you wasting your money if you haven't bought the product?

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If they spent investors money in a good way and provided a price war within the BR market, then surely we would be all the merrier.

What price war? There is NO BLU RAY PRICE WAR.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 12, 2008]

Understand what theprof00 is trying to tell you. He is saying TOSHIBA should start a price war with in Blu ray, he never said that there is currently one.

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How is BD-Java "broke"?

BD-J contents are not uniformly compatible across different players.

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Sky is the limit with the number of ways it could be implemented within Blu-ray.

I do 50% of my coding with Java. Take my word for it, cross-platform compatibility is not guaranteed with Java. In fact, I am fixing a weird bug that only appears on Linux JVM(Works fine under Windows and OS X) right now.

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So, in that regard it is superior to the simplicity of HDi, which by the way is just a browser extension.

For distributed content, HDi's browser based approach is better.

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it's not going to be fully compatible with the millions of DVD players already in homes throughout the US...

DVD2 is fully compatible with all existing DVD players, you just need Xbox 360 or DVD2 player to access new HDi features.

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the 360 has sold about 17 million consoles. Talk about re-inventing the numbers!

I specifically said the installed base by the time DVD2 launches.

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the one HDDVD fell victim to and that's STUDIO SUPPORT.

Well, we are talking DVD, not HD-DVD. Studio support is not an issue. Actually, Managed Copy alone should be the killer app of DVD2, since studios are implementing Managed Copy on their own, usually via Windows DRM or iTunes. With DVD2 Managed Copy, there is a standard way of implementing managed copy.

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Toshiba should make a Blu ray player that puts anything that SONY could ever dream of to shame, and end this and stop waisting investors money.

Toshiba makes money by keeping DVD alive. Blu-Ray's success is highly detrimental to financial well-beings of Toshiba and Microsoft.

xplay i really hope all those responses were jokes, i really do.
otherwise it might be time for you to hang up the keyboard and mouse.
I will give you an ample amount of trust that they were jokes, but no promises!

Really? Seriously, how can Toshiba compete by joining the Blu Ray club (not that I would mind)? But in a technical sense... how can Toshiba lower a blu ray player down to around, say.... $200 to get 'an edge' given ROYALTIES passed on to Sony? What will they TRIM DOWN in parts, to get that $200 retail box to every household?

I tend to include myself with the 'consumer' side, I don't know about you Xplay...

I specifically said the installed base by the time DVD2 launches.
You weren't the only person posting those numbers meat.
And by way of specificity, predicting sales number for a console that for the last two months has been dead last in console sales and has taken more than two years to sell 17 million, is not so specific, regardless of "predictions". Nobody predicted HDDVD would fail either

xplay, it's been stated numerous times that sony is artificially inflating prices for the BR. If so, toshiba could easily work out a deal with sony, that would bypass royalties. Tosh does own several sony manufacturing facilities you know.

What this does have on its side is its 'backward compatibility' with existing players.

If the studios are persuaded to take it on and incorporate it in their 'standard' dvd release of films then it could very well do well.

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xplay i really hope all those responses were jokes, i really do.
otherwise it might be time for you to hang up the keyboard and mouse.
I will give you an ample amount of trust that they were jokes, but no promises!

There's one thing I learned a LONG TIME ago regarding chats & forums... IS NOT TO TAKE EVERYTHING SERIOUSLY. Yes, of course, I'm partially joking. Many at times I'm sarcasstic... but I don't consider anyone enemies here. That includes you.

Life is TOO SHORT TO STRESS OVER INTERNET discussions, with people you have ABSOLUTELY ZERO (eye) CONTACT with.... especially as trivial as a none-existent product.

It's a discussion, with humor on the side. NOTHING MORE. NOTHING LESS.

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I tend to include myself with the 'consumer' side, I don't know about you Xplay...

Fine. I'll be the 'Lone Whore' in this group. DAMMIT!

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 12, 2008]

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DVD2 is fully compatible with all existing DVD players, you just need Xbox 360 or DVD2 player to access new HDi features.

So where's the added benefit to current DVD owner's. This only caters to a select group, and that's current 360 and HDDVD hardware users. This sounds almost like the infamous profie 1.0 vs. 1.1/2.0 blu ray specs. I have a Blu ray player that can play the movie but not the features. NOW it have a DVD player that might play the movie and definitly not the bonus features.

The benefit to existing dvd player owners is - they continue buying dvds as usual.

If and when they want to upgrade the buy a DVD2 player and their previous purchases will still play, but have better picture and more features.

ok play cuz for a minute there i thought you were trying to demonize me somehow by affiliating me with spitzer?
My only beef is that all these technologies are coming out and a lot of people here cling to them like lifeboats from the good ship HDDVD. I would rather spend more money on movies, rather than players, and would rather other people did the same and went with a format that has near-complete studio support, so that we consumers help each other out. But instead it seems like many have a jaded view of sony and are trying to claw at it with broken fingernails. I would like my investment to hold. By history it seems i have made a good decision, please let us all get by the petty little things like the DRM fiasco and the battery problems (which were made by seperate companies within sony) and focus on bringing down BR prices without trying to dig up it's foundation.

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xplay, it's been stated numerous times that sony is artificially inflating prices for the BR. If so, toshiba could easily work out a deal with sony, that would bypass royalties. Tosh does own several sony manufacturing facilities you know.

How? Seriously. Samsung & other blu ray manufacturers (Sony excluded)... can't even release a product CLOSE to the ps3's blu ray capabilities- at a lesser price!!! Do you see a blu ray box out there, that performs on the par (or better) than the ps3- for equal or LESSER price?

I don't play console games... but I bought the PS3 due to it's FEATURES not provided by other blu ray products... for $299! (Sonystyle.com- $100 credit for the first purchase $299 & up).

The STINKER: Sony's PS3 is raking ALL THE PROFITS due to its advanced blu ray features at a CHEAPER PRICE... leaving its partners' blu ray boxes... COBWEBS ON RETAIL SHELVES. Now how will that be different with Toshiba?

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 12, 2008]

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xplay, it's been stated numerous times that sony is artificially inflating prices for the BR.

For a good reason. Need to make back $1 billion payout to studios and $3 billion lost on PS3.

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If so, toshiba could easily work out a deal with sony, that would bypass royalties.

And exactly why would Sony waver the royalty?

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So where's the added benefit to current DVD owner's

A lot of current DVD owners are likely to be Xbox 360 owners as well.

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This only caters to a select group, and that's current 360 and HDDVD hardware users

That would be around 11 million in the US alone.

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NOW it have a DVD player that might play the movie and definitly not the bonus features.

Then buy the DVD2 player. Should go for around $150. DVD2 players enhance all DVDs beyond normal upconversion.

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My only beef is that all these technologies are coming out and a lot of people here cling to them like lifeboats from the good ship HDDVD.

Wait!!!!.....there's still life in Ol' Red yet.

[Post edited by tony1569 on Mar 12, 2008]

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A lot of current DVD owners are likely to be Xbox 360 owners as well.

Hey...I did'nt know that my 80yr old grandma has XBOX along with her DVD. Just joking with you DeadMeat.

Currently how much does SD software out sell BD software?

If the studios incorporate DVD2 into the SD releases then the consumer has already made the move to a next gen product without realizing.

If the PS3 was likened to a trojan horse by some - what would they call this?

I said that a while back about the PS3 being the most popular Blu Ray player, and all the stand alone players sitting on the shelves. And I was told that was not true, that people were still buying the standd alone Blu Ray players. Toshiba, I guess, is now deciding to play the game the way SONY played the game. I just wish they would have done this back in January, when WB made their decission. However, maybe this was Toshiba's plan all along, to create a whole new war with the DVD2 technology. Remember, it is all about the almighty dollar.

Well Scotsman, IMO, it's still not HD or next gen. Well I guess you could call it almost next gen. I can see the movie ads now. AVAILABLE TUESDAY ON NEXT GEN SD-DVD.

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The benefit to existing dvd player owners is - they continue buying dvds as usual.

If and when they want to upgrade the buy a DVD2 player and their previous purchases will still play, but have better picture and more features.

FYI: Both Blu-ray and HD DVD players offer backwards compatibility and can play standard definition DVDs.

toshiba could easily lighten up some production fees for sony, and lend some programmers to help with BR programs, and Sony could lighten up on royalties and such. Sony and Toshiba worked hand in hand with these kind of deals for a long time, it's nothing new deadmeat.

Xplay, though it would be difficult for Toshiba to be in the BR market, they are one of the top tech companies in Japan and certainly not lacking in the development area. They could come out with all that interactivity ya'll are always on about, or some new features. If they did, maybe Sony would even decide to pay Toshiba for the tech, who knows? But the decision is stronger. Should they keep starting losing battles, i dunno, it's for fate to decide.

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FYI: Both Blu-ray and HD DVD players offer backwards compatibility and can play standard definition DVDs.

Yes but their discs aren't - that's a huge difference when you look at the software sales ratio

[Post edited by Scotsman on Mar 12, 2008]

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If the PS3 was likened to a trojan horse by some - what would they call this?

A SHREWD MARKETEER, a DEVIL-INCARNATE? Wait... that's Joan Rivers.

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Remember, it is all about the almighty dollar.

Speaking of the Dollah', I'm gonna need some QUICK BUCKS given my 'gadget-whore' activities, are more Chaotic than Paris Hilton's medical exam. Anyone got a Pole? Anyone?

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Then buy the DVD2 player. Should go for around $150. DVD2 players enhance all DVDs beyond normal upconversion.

Dammit, for the love of anything with mirrored walls.... Does anyone have a pole!!!!

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 12, 2008]

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I do 50% of my coding with Java. Take my word for it, cross-platform compatibility is not guaranteed with Java.

There are no guarantees in life, however Java is certified to be cross-platform compatible for those specific JVMs that pass Sun's certification testing. With the large number of equipment providers, it's not surprising that some inconsistencies have been uncovered between players - something that HDi never had to content with.

<understatement> Java under various JVMs definitely offers a higher degree of compatibility than HDi's JScript, CSS, etc. when used with different browser implementations.</understatement>

IB
dvd2 is already a flop. a small stupid threat being pushed by the other anti-BR Microsoft. DVD is done, there is almost nothing left to improve upon. Other companies have seen this and are working on holographic. Consumers have seen this and are buying BR. dvd2 is just another attempt by the MS team to try to destroy tangible media, and usher in the enormously profitable digital download. Think about this: When music went digital, the prices were still very similar to the actual disc despite not having production costs.
If and When MS institutes large scale digital downloads that erase themselves and take several hours to d/l for the same price, or even a third cheaper(while making 6 times the profit), will you see these little MS backed products as a step towards a better way for the consumer, or for the Bill Gates.

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Currently how much does SD software out sell BD software?

Currently 99:1

Last year, DVD sold $22 billion worth, while Blu-Ray sold $180 million worth with all the free give-aways(paid for by Sony but scanned as sales) and BOGOs.

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FYI: Both Blu-ray and HD DVD players offer backwards compatibility and can play standard definition DVDs.

But you cannot play a Blu-Ray disc on a DVD player. A DVD2 disc will play on a DVD player just fine.

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toshiba could easily lighten up some production fees for sony

I don't understand.

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and lend some programmers to help with BR programs,

Software isn't Toshiba's strength.

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and Sony could lighten up on royalties and such.

Blu-Ray royalty is fixed at $30 per drive and $60 per player.

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Xplay, though it would be difficult for Toshiba to be in the BR market, they are one of the top tech companies in Japan and certainly not lacking in the development area.

Nishida's objective is to concentrate and focus on profitable market segments. Since Toshiba is better off if Blu-Ray's dead, don't expect Toshiba ever in Blu-Ray market.

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Yes but their discs aren't - that's a huge difference when you look at the software sales ratio

I have this little suspicion that HD media sales will increase as more people buy the players capable of playing them.

I also suspect getting people to buy new players (which don't exist now) simply for some standard DVDs that allow downloadable ring tones or video/commercial clips (which don't exist now), is going to be a hard sell to the demographic that has home networks and broadband connections, when HD media is already real, available, and offers the interactivity mentioned.

deadmeat, toshiba produces things for sony. Hence lower the production costs.
honestly man, toshiba has no chance if they are going to go with something other than BR. None of these formats will have very much longevity.that equals negative profit on the development scale.

Money for nothing.................and your chicks for free.

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None of these formats will have very much longevity.that equals negative profit on the development scale.

How much have they already developed while producing HD DVD

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deadmeat, toshiba produces things for sony. Hence lower the production costs.

Explain why Sony would compromise for Toshiba, when Samsung can't even get cheaper blu ray boxes on the shelves... and they produced LCD panels for Sony.

When Toshiba announced they were discontinuing HD DVD they said

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Toshiba also intends to maintain collaborative relations with the companies who joined with Toshiba in working to build up the HD DVD market, including Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures, and DreamWorks Animation and major Japanese and European content providers on the entertainment side, as well as leaders in the IT industry, including Microsoft, Intel, and HP. Toshiba will study possible collaboration with these companies for future business opportunities, utilizing the many assets generated through the development of HD DVD.

I wonder if they meant DVD2 I also wonder whether the studios in that quote are already onboard?

Deadmeat, i was just wondering,....
where did you get the specs? for the HD 960p quote?
Also, i'm wondering, would dvd2 be compatible with BR players?

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Also, i'm wondering, would dvd2 be compatible with BR players?

Probably but without the HDi content and the 960p

[Post edited by Scotsman on Mar 12, 2008]

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Blu-Ray royalty is fixed at $30 per drive and $60 per player.

Interesting... reference (link)?

I do know that just a couple years ago, standard DVD manufacturers were paying about $20 in royalty fees on a $100 player. Many of the sub-fees are charged on a percentage basis of the player's cost, so this royalty fee does up or down to some extent with the cost of the player.

i wonder if ms and tosh and pan aren't trying to recreate dvd into something br can't play. In order to keep dvd owners from switching. That would be a dirty little tactic aimed at hampering progress. If such a thing was true i wouldn't mind boycotting them, as i boycotted intel for a good 12 years after their "well make a faster processor when someone forces us to make a faster processor" thing happened.

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i wonder if ms and tosh and pan aren't trying to recreate dvd into something br can't play. In order to keep dvd owners from switching.

They're using a different lens, no conspiracy there. As for the prevention of 'switching' well... the QUALITY of that box's OUTPUT is still up for judgement.

Consumers may switch. Consumers may buy both.... or they may just consider NEITHER FORMAT & save the money for gas.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 12, 2008]

gas is expensive!

I think THAT is what everyone can agree on.... damn them Oil Cartel!

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honestly man, toshiba has no chance if they are going to go with something other than BR. None of these formats will have very much longevity.that equals negative profit on the development scale.

Most of R&D for DVD2 is already paid for, from HD-DVD.

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How much have they already developed while producing HD DVD

Pretty much all of it.

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I wonder if they meant DVD2

Surely looks like it.

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I also wonder whether the studios in that quote are already onboard?

Well, some studios are more inclined than the others.

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Deadmeat, i was just wondering,....
where did you get the specs? for the HD 960p quote?

Toshiba is putting in Super Upconversion into its future DVD players and encourage the Chinese to do the same. Super Upconversion had been debated to death at here and other AV forums. The native output of Super Upconverted DVD is 960p.

Basically, DVD2 is an initiative to recreate HD-DVD experience on DVD. Interactivity is provided by same HDi, while HD visual is provided by Super Upconversion.

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Also, i'm wondering, would dvd2 be compatible with BR players?

Yes and No. Blu-Ray players will play DVD2 discs as DVDs, but no Super Upconversion and HDi interactivity.

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Interesting... reference (link)?

Well, the original news article expired, but try here. http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=568614

Blu-Ray drive royalty is confirmed at $30, the player royalty is roughly double that because of all the video codec, BD+, and Java royalties. So don't expect sub $200 Blu-Ray players without a royalty break, which won't happen for another 5 years.

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i wonder if ms and tosh and pan aren't trying to recreate dvd into something br can't play.

DVD2s can be played on all DVD compatible players.

So, let me get this right...

...Toshiba couldn't push HD DVD enough and 'lost' the 'format war'...

...so Toshiba is pushing for this new DVD2 thing...

...is there anything else we are not getting? I mean, why not push HD DVD again when studios can support blu and discontinue DVD within the next 'couple of years'??

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Well, the original news article expired, but try here. http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=568614

OK then.

Console Gamer site message boards are blocked for me here, but even if it wasn't I really wouldn't be much inclined to read it in all honesty.

I was hoping for a breakdown in real license fees paid, much like the breakdowns available for standard DVD players, and from a reliable and reputable source.

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I mean, why not push HD DVD again when studios can support blu and discontinue DVD within the next 'couple of years'??

Blu-Ray can die.
DVD cannot die.

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Console Gamer site message boards are blocked for me here, but even if it wasn't I really wouldn't be much inclined to read it in all honesty.

No, the original source is digitimes.com, Taiwan's electronics industry trade news. It is just that their news expires shortly after a few days and cannot be accessed without a paid subscription. So the info is legit and matches what Microsoft quoted on Blu-Ray drive royalty back in 2005.

Royalty Rate & OEM Wholesale price according to digitimes.

Blu-Ray Drive $120(Feb 2008)
Bu-Ray Royalty : $30 + $5(DVD royalty paid separately)

HD-DVD drive $58(November 2007)
HD-DVD Royalty : $12(DVD + HD-DVD combined, so just $7 for HD-DVD)

Well deadmeat it's probably a good thing it expired then, because my Taiwanese is a little rusty. My Mandarin is a lot better though... I wonder if there are any credible Mandarin sites that reference this article?

From what I gather from your posts though, is that you're a man in desperate need of a Blu-ray player! Perhaps we could organize some sort of charity fund for you, where members could contribute a little something toward your purchase?

Edit: The 3C group (Sony, Pioneer, and Philips) gets either $5 or 3.5% (whichever is higher) of the player cost in royalties for STANDARD DVD alone. They are a minor player BTW.... compared at least to 6C that includes Toshiba. I question your source.

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Mar 12, 2008]

He's right.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/506hook/

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MPEG-4 decoder chip, and the HDMI output circuitry are essentially the same for both formats. The largest variable cost appears to be in the intellectual property (IP). The Blu-ray disc (BD) format uses IP owned by core members of the BD Association, plus the interactive portions known as BD Java (BD-J), which is owned by Sun Microsystems. A published report has placed the price of the royalty package at around $30 per BD player. By comparison, the royalties for HD DVD players have been pegged at around $12 per unit. In addition, the iHD system included in the cost of HD DVD software is owned by Microsoft and will be included within their new Vista operating system for PCs with HD DVD drives.

It sure takes a lot to convince you Skyhawk? You seem to be overally confident when you know you are right. But when someone has something or knows something that you do not, you seem to get a little sensative?

Anyways, Toshiba's efforts reguarding DVD2 are merely a last ditch effort to re-deploy millions of R&D dollars spent on HD DVD, for standard DVD. Not such a bad thing for people (consumers) that do not wish to spend the bank on HD media (Blu-Ray) as of yet. For 200 million people in North America, DVD still will be the choice for many years to come.

NOTHING THAT A SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH CAN FIND. Deadmeat's infos are all over the net. Geez, skyhawk... why does it ALWAYS HAVE TO BE SOME SORT OF TRIAL when you're around.

Lighten up, man... it's VAPORWARE until you get your hands on it.

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Blu-Ray can die.
DVD cannot die.

OK, now your starting to sound like a fan boy.

I smell A FEUD 'A BREWIN'.... (as if)

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It sure takes a lot to convince you Skyhawk?

Yes, it takes more than a link to a gamer message board that I don't have access to at the moment to convince me! LOL, but thanks for the link. Standard DVD royalties were extremely high in the beginning, but were lowered as more players were being sold. Example:

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020524S0091

Even if true, obviously the $18 difference in royalty fees between HD DVD and Blu-ray didn't sway any other third party CE companies to support HD DVD. Or did Toshiba actually make money by paying royalties to itself?

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OK, now your starting to sound like a fan boy.

The entire psychology behind "if my format didn't win, then both should go down!" never ceases to amaze me, party because it's reminiscent of those who murder their wives who leave them for another guy thinking "if I can't have her, no one will!". The concept scares me to be honest.

I don't see the point in this at all. All this is going to do is create even more market confusion. Most people probably aren't going to buy any HD format other than Blu-Ray at this point. But if they have to get back into the HD game, then I would much rather see them try to resurrect HD DVDs or back the HD-VMD format. As someone else already mentioned, it's capable of 1080p, it's cheap and it's available now.

What the should do is adopt HD-DVD and have that be the format that replaces SDVDs. With it's low price it only makes sense for HD-VMD to take over as the new standard, with BR being a niche product. It would be a win-win for almost everyone. HD-VMD is an HD format that everyone can afford ($18 per movie plus it upconverts SDVD), so by making that the new standard people are going to be more likely to guy out and buy more HDTVs, which is better for the economy and the HD market.

FR... but HD-VMD does NOT have wide Hollywood studio support, especially the noticeable absence of many films in the Sony/Columbia catalog, and Sony Music titles too. HD-VMD is primarily marketed to Asian countries, specifically India, as many of the discs already released are many of those 'Bollywood' titles.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

I don't care who buys what as long as I can still buy Blu ray. HDDVD is gone, HD-VMD does'nt offer the movie selection nor does it offer any HD audio codecs (that's the main reason why I bought the 605), and this DVD2 thing sounds stupid. I'm almost done with buying HD equipment. The last thing I want is a Panasonic BD50K.

I seriously doubt that HD-VMD will take hold here. On the other hand, these vague stories about super-dupper upconverters and new sd format enhancements may very well ring true. I find it very hard to believe that Toshiba and Microsoft threw in the towel without a contigincy plan, they may have had something up their sleeve all along. I think its reasonable to assume that at least some elements of the HD DVD format will find its way to sd products: interactivity, audio codecs, whatever. If the yet to be seen DVD2 ever comes to be and the new sooper-duuper upconverters ever hit the market, then BD may very well have a problem that they did not forsee. But that's all speculative right now. We'll just have to wait and see.