Re: Toshiba, MS, and Panasonic started a working commitee on DVD2 format, recreating HD-DVD experience on DVD

Just out of curiosity, is there a link to Toshiba's announcement of these upcoming "2.0 standard DVD players" with "HDi", "Interactive Internet Content" amd "Super Upconversion"?

This "news" hasn't even made it to the AVSForum yet...

Awesomeness! I just had a kid so spending $400 on a PS3 for just HD movies, when I already have a 360 for HD games on my 720p native HDTV just isn't a first priority. Plus I can get $5 movies at Walmart, like the remastered edition of Terminator 2 from Artisan remastered from supposedly Full 1080p/24fps then of course downconverted to DVD. It looks great upcoverted on my A3 that I got for $150 at Walmart in late January. I'm not too angry now that HD lost but waiting for prices to come down or waiting to try out DVD2 if it ever comes out.

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Well, the difference is that you could take and play back your DVD2 everywhere, while you can't do the same with Blu-Ray.

true, however, it will really only be a "dvd1" once you do so.

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With Blu-Ray, $199 is really really difficult due to $60 player royalty and the restriction on who could make those.

i'm not talking about the players, i'm talking about the media.
Market trends have always shown that certain things have a certain price and generally do not dip below those prices. The prices always stay up, but instead add extra features. Once standard DVD's start dipping in price to the ten dollar mark as you've stated later on in this thread, more emphasis will be put on BR. Besides, until Sony and the other BR committee guys start offering 10+ free movies with a player on a month to month basis, i think it is safe to say that BR is for keeps. Not only that, but it will be very hard for anyone to continue buying DVD's once that happens anyways. kind of a win/win in their eyes. So, I'm guessing strategy will be as follows. Keep regular pricing going to keep up profit, then once DVD makes the plunge to 12-15 dollar prices, start offering 5 free movies, and 10 free movies once dvd hits 10$ to usher in the new market.

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"Double dippling effect" is exaggerated.

Not really, it is still untapped income for the studios and companies producing the discs. Why opt out of potential income?

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The idea is to increase purchase rate by giving consumers the extra-content that makes a title worth to keep instead of renting once.

Actually i think the idea is to offer the customer something else to keep people from adopting BR to introduce downloads. And if you think there is any other reason to it, you must be mad as a hatter. Microsoft is the chief financial backer to almost all of the interactive content on this format. They are pushing this format, and using Toshiba to do it, letting toshiba take the brunt of any possible "failure" and integrity loss.

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One thing, Blu-Ray can never match DVD's penetratio rate. Why? Because less than 20% of US households have HDTV sets.

I object! http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070626006133&newsLang=en
approximately 36 percent have hdtv's and then number is growing larger every year. I couldn't find a year to year graph of increase, but the precent increase is said to be growing in other parts of the world (according to some sites not worth posting but worth a google "hdtv percentage 2008") so expectedly in America as well.

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this is no mere "blow-up" scam.

yeah it is, hd is the future. As SDTV prices plummet, new HD sets will become standard. the dvd2 player is set to be 200$ (i think i read that by OP) in a few years, and BR will easily beat that in interactivity and challenge the price point as well. Besides, doesn't the upconversion only work on HDtv's anyways? I feel like you are dodging the issue of HD when it applies to BR, but fail to mention it when it comes to DVD2. unless i am mistaken....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royalties
apparantly royalties are determined by more than just "years ahead" as you mention. Specifically, it should pay for the development, and then reduce to smaller costs. With PS3 selling so many units (beating 360 for two months now) don't you think increased adoption will lower prices? I feel like you do not want to admit that!?!? i dunno

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A possibly good news for DVD

it is the first stage in HD adoption. Prices will come down to compete with DVD. If Toshiba could manage cheaper than DVD prices, so can the combined efforts of BRCommittee.

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when I already have a 360 for HD games on my 720p native HDTV just isn't a first priority

360 games are not in HD

What do you mean 360 games are not in HD??? Please inform.

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Just out of curiosity, is there a link to Toshiba's announcement of these upcoming "2.0 standard DVD players" with "HDi", "Interactive Internet Content" amd "Super Upconversion"?

This "news" hasn't even made it to the AVSForum yet...

Nope. And there may never be one. The OP only pasted an article that indicates a study group was formed. I would assume the group is formed to determine whether or not they should proceed with the implementation of such technology and how.

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true, however, it will really only be a "dvd1" once you do so.

Better than getting a blank screen.

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Once standard DVD's start dipping in price to the ten dollar mark as you've stated later on in this thread, more emphasis will be put on BR.

But consumers don't have reason to switch to Blu-Ray.

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Not only that, but it will be very hard for anyone to continue buying DVD's once that happens anyways.

Hard to swallow the $10 price difference everytime you buy a movie .

Remember that most consumers already don't see the difference between upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray anyway. Super Upconversion makes it near impossible to do so fo 99% of population.

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Actually i think the idea is to offer the customer something else to keep people from adopting BR to introduce downloads.

This is a DVD Forum initiative. Of course DVD Forum wants to sell lots of DVDs, not downloads.

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They are pushing this format, and using Toshiba to do it, letting toshiba take the brunt of any possible "failure" and integrity loss.

Actually, two head companies of DVD2 project(WG-12) are Microsoft and Panasonic(a shocker!!!).

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approximately 36 percent have hdtv's and then number is growing larger every year.

That number was obtained by dividing the number of HDTV sets sold by the number of household. HDTV owning houseyholds tend to have multiple. Exact count is less than 20%.

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yeah it is

It isn't. This is super resolution, the same technique used by NASA, CIA, and law enforcement to enhance images. Toshiba has brought this to consumer electronics space.

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As SDTV prices plummet, new HD sets will become standard.

And most HDTV owners subscribe to SD cable service only.

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the dvd2 player is set to be 200$

More like $150 and lower.

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and BR will easily beat that in interactivity and challenge the price point as well

I already explained why it was difficult for Blu-Ray players to reach $199.

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apparantly royalties are determined by more than just "years ahead" as you mention. Specifically, it should pay for the development, and then reduce to smaller costs.

Well, doesn't work like that if CD and DVD royalty history is anything to go by. And Blu-Ray royalty is starting very high.

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With PS3 selling so many units

Because SCEI has 2.5 million unsold units available.

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(beating 360 for two months now)

Supply issue in the middle of model change and Chinese New Year vacation.

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don't you think increased adoption will lower prices?

No. SCEI's still losing money on PS3 and there is a gentlemen(cartel)'s agreement to not drop prices below certain points.

This is the reason BDP-S350 is priced same as its older replacement while Phillips raised MSRP of its new model by $50 to keep all Blu-Ray player pricing above $400. SCEI itself already announced that they are staying above $400 by annoucing pricing of June bundle.

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Nope. And there may never be one. The OP only pasted an article that indicates a study group was formed. I would assume the group is formed to determine whether or not they should proceed with the implementation of such technology and how.

There is nothing technical about this study group, because HDi has been commercially operatoinal for 20 months now and moving "HDi + networking" to DVD is no work at all. It's purely political.

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Not really, it is still untapped income for the studios and companies producing the discs. Why opt out of potential income?

Sure. But I doubt everyone who buys a BD player will be replacing their entire DVD library. Especially those that buy into it later in the game, who are less likely to be the more enthusiastic "videophiles."

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Actually i think the idea is to offer the customer something else to keep people from adopting BR to introduce downloads. And if you think there is any other reason to it, you must be mad as a hatter. Microsoft is the chief financial backer to almost all of the interactive content on this format. They are pushing this format, and using Toshiba to do it, letting toshiba take the brunt of any possible "failure" and integrity loss.

MS pushed for HDi implementation on BD, both before the format war and even as BD 2.0 was being put together. The theory of MS trying to delay BR for the sake of pushing movie downloads seems to be more of an urban legend.

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apparantly royalties are determined by more than just "years ahead" as you mention. Specifically, it should pay for the development, and then reduce to smaller costs. With PS3 selling so many units (beating 360 for two months now) don't you think increased adoption will lower prices? I feel like you do not want to admit that!?!? i dunno

Arguably, MS may have supply constraints. While units are not impossible to find, they do appear less available than before the holidays. But more convincing is the huge drop in sales from December to January for the 360. The PS3 has indeed slowly increased its monthly sales here, but the huge dip in 360 sales along with some anectdotal evidence does suggest there may be some supply contraints. At the least, it may be a contributing factor.

Though, I don't think the PS3's sales alone are going make a huge impact on the idea that royalties may be reduced. DVD players currently sell on a much larger scale.

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There is nothing technical about this study group, because HDi has been commercially operatoinal for 20 months now and moving "HDi + networking" to DVD is no work at all.

Never said there was anything technical about the study group. I would think the bigger question may be is it worth it to try. I wouldn't call it no work. Relatively simple, sure. But it most certainly will require some investment of time and resource to make it happen (Both with CE's and studios).

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It's purely political.

I'd call it financial, but probably an issue of semantics in this case.

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Nope. And there may never be one. The OP only pasted an article that indicates a study group was formed.

You mean the study group formed LAST YEAR? WTF? You mean the OP just made up all this stuff? Gosh, no wonder it's not being talked about on any other forum!

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Remember that most consumers already don't see the difference between upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray anyway. Super Upconversion makes it near impossible to do so fo 99% of population.

It isn't. This is super resolution, the same technique used by NASA, CIA, and law enforcement to enhance images. Toshiba has brought this to consumer electronics space.

Super Upconversion hasn't even hit the market yet, and you already have stats on how many people can see the difference? You also know that these players will have the same processing power as the technology used by NASA? I'm dubious that I won't be able to tell the difference, but I'll wait until the product actually is available before making de facto statements.

The studios wanted one HD format, so I'll be suprised if the majority of them get on the DVD2 train. Why muddy the waters again?

Most people can see the difference (in my experience I haven't met one person who couldn't see the difference on a 50+ inch screen), but they don't find the difference worth spending the extra cash right now. There's a price tipping point where a significant number of "average consumers" will get a player and at least buy some high profile and/or "event' films to show off their HDTVs, but I won't pretend to know the exact figure. $300-$400 for an HD player is reasonable to me at this stage in the product life cycle, but that doesn't go for everyone else, of course.