Super Upconversion Primer

For those who can't understand the objective of DVD2 initiative, just watch following two youtube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Naxs2jaXdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qxa1zv5uI

You can clearly see the quality improvements even from the youtube video. People have seen super upconversion demo in action spoke highly of this technology, stunned that it actually works and they could now read previously illegible letters off SD video.

[Post edited by Deadmeat on Mar 17, 2008]

Wow, if you can see the difference on less than a standard TV sized window @ 120Kbps, it must be good!

I shouldn't talk though, since my parents originally bought their first color TV from watching commercials on our black&white that showed how better color was!

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Mar 17, 2008]

Wuh?

I wrote this on another thread, and for the record I want to add it here...

I want great quality - which is Blu-ray!

Let's don't forget the low bit-rates of standard DVD mastering, which reduces the A/V quality, REGARDLESS of artificial 'super-upconversion' techniques. Every time I want to see just how bad DVD can be, I take out my Jurassic Park: The Lost World DVD from many years ago, and remind myself of why HD discs are so much better... just imagine how great the Jurassic Park series will look in Blu-ray Hi-Def!! - bring it on Spielberg and Universal.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

I'm sure this technology will work great for the millions of people who are not willing to make the jump to Blu-ray for whatever their reason may be. I personally don't know if I'll be making the jump to either one (SUpC or BD) unless the price is right (and the kinks are fully worked out of BD). So we'll see in the next 2 years if Toshiba decides to fully pursue this new venture or they give into BD. Either way I think Toshiba will do great bringing a great quality product.

On a personal note LH, with all due respect we all know you have a wide knowledge of HD and always keep on top of the latest info and stuff but, do you always have to rub on people's face when you "already posted about this"? Is kind of annoying. Perhaps is not what you say but, how you say it.

[Post edited by wii-lite on Mar 17, 2008]

I love you too wii-lite... and your opinions.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)
~ HI-DEF DUAL FORMAT SUPPORTER ~

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Let's don't forget the low bit-rates of standard DVD mastering, which reduces the A/V quality, REGARDLESS of artificial 'super-upconversion' techniques.

Well, if a Super Upconverted new DVD releases look "pretty much identical" to their Blu-Ray counter-parts to 95% of public, then Super Upconversion's mission is accomplished.

In my opinion... the risk to Blu-ray is once Super-Up players are available, there already exists a TON of DVD titles, whereas new Blu-ray titles are still slowly being released, and that "95% of people" may very well be satisfied with watching SD-DVD content (already widely available), instead of following the continued Blu-ray release schedule.

I wish BRDA would accelerate the number of forthcoming releases (both new and catalog). Obviously more replication plants may be needed, etc to achieve this reality. For example, all of the JAMES BOND films underwent HD re-mastering in 2006, so only the 'will' or planning is lacking right now in releasing every one of them on Blu-ray "next Tuesday".

Warner and Sony are very aggressive with new disc releases, so at least these two catalogs will see Blu-ray faster than those from Fox, Disney, MGM, New Line, etc (very slow and with such vast catalogs!).

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

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Well, if a Super Upconverted new DVD releases look "pretty much identical" to their Blu-Ray counter-parts to 95% of public, then Super Upconversion's mission is accomplished.

OH MY GOODNESS, another you can't tell the difference statement. You can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p unless you have a 50+ inch TV. Now it's going to be the 960p is identical to 1080p debate. What size does a TV now have to be 40+ inches?

LH, I heard that Warner was considering closing New Line as a studio and bring everything under one Warner studio. If I find the article I'll share it.

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I wish BRDA would accelerate the number of forthcoming releases (both new and catalog).

I think that is now more likely to happen post HD DVD, because the fear of defeat kept a lot of companies (both replicators, CE manufacturers, and studios from jumping in with both feet). If you think a lot of consumers would be put off by having fear of their choice of format losing, imagine a studio investing millions in authoring and replicating releases, only to find out that format lost a few months later. Or that CE manufacturer that must invest R&D and production tooling, only to find out their format lost afterwards. Or that poor company who invests in a large replication plant, only to have their format lose out before they even get to replicate their very first disk.

Things will pick up now just fine

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I love you too wii-lite... and your opinions.

Sorry if I offended you, after I wrote that I thought that perhaps is not my place to give opinions of that kind.

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LH wrote:

In my opinion... the risk to Blu-ray is once Super-Up players are available, there already exists a TON of DVD titles, whereas new Blu-ray titles are still slowly being released, and that "95% of people" may very well be satisfied with watching SD-DVD content (already widely available), instead of following the continued Blu-ray release schedule.

I completely agree with you there, I've been saying it that all along (lol, just messign with ya LH ) but really now, I too think that since most people is happy with SD-DVD's and if SU players are all they are suppose to be, that will be a real threat to BD. Why buy a $35 BD movie when they can get the same quality (if it happens) for $5 to $19 a movie.

IF this Vaporware actually validates its claims, and it ACTUALLY OUTPUTS 960p - which is JUST 120pixels SHORT OF 1080p, which I DOUBT anyone can ACTUALLY DISCERN the pixel difference - people WILL HAVE A HARD TIME justifying a $400 blu ray player, versus a $150 super upconversion.
Moreover, blu-ray library PALES in comparison to the current DVD collection, ALL VERY MUCH compatible with this Vaporware.
Why buy another set of blu-ray Harry Potter Collection (for around $100), when you can re-play your already-owned DVD version... AT ZERO COST- while getting it at HD-quality gusto!
Of course, the verdict is still out for this Vaporware- whether it actually has TEETH.

But given economic times, people WILL consider ALTERNATIVES, to save their every dollar earned. People WILL COMPROMISE.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 17, 2008]

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IF this Vaporware actually validates its claims

It's not a vaporware.

This is a technology that originated from HDTV sets and has been in full public demo for about a year now. It is just that Toshiba's CEO Nishida decided to implement this technology on DVD players to combat Blu-Ray after the demise of HD-DVD.

I'm only saying (in my point of view) that it's Vaporware, until I see it on retail shelves (or purchase online). I'm also saying its claims as Hype, until I get to review the box myself.

Believe you me, when I say: I want nothing more than to get this item on the mainstream. If this Super Upconverter does what it's SUPPOSE to do (with impressive results), I (and millions of other dvd collectors) will be glad to watch HD video, by simply using the EXISTING collection of DVD movies... without the REQUIREMENT to buy hi-def platter, for the same title... all for over HALF the price of a blu ray player.

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 18, 2008]

Que milagro! .... otra pagina hablando de cosas totalmente inecesarias, bamos a añadirla a la coleccion, y aremos un libro para los fanaticos de porqueria.

Arrriba Bluray!

Most consumers that upconverting players right now think they are buying an "HIGHDEF PLAYER". There are still a large number of consumers that have no idea what Bluray is! SUpC could really take off fast!

[Post edited by Ironbull on Mar 18, 2008]

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Well, if a Super Upconverted new DVD releases look "pretty much identical" to their Blu-Ray counter-parts to 95% of public, then Super Upconversion's mission is accomplished.

Exactly right! Regardless of bitrate, or previously posted comments, is whether for most of us this 'new players' abilities can outweight blu-ray and its price...since some hi-def media discs have 'useless features' (from a blu-ray fanboy), the same features that are in HD DVD will be (some day) fully operational in blu-ray...

It all comes down to timing!
To succeed it should come out soon, so lets start the advertising, promotions and displays...

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kucoloco wrote:

Que milagro! .... otra pagina hablando de cosas totalmente inecesarias, bamos a añadirla a la coleccion, y aremos un libro para los fanaticos de porqueria.

Arrriba Bluray!

Translation:

"What a miracle!... another thread talking about completely unnecessary things, let's add it to the collection, and we'll make a book for the 'pile of pig-crap' fanboys.

Hurray Bluray!"

Look's whos talking about "shit fanboys" kukoloco. How rude and infantile of you to talk crap to HD-DVD and/or SD-DVD supporters or anyone that talks the truth around here. If you don't have the guts to be a man and post your flaming comments in English for all to understand then don't even bother and take your childish behavior to bluray.com or any other site where they'll really welcome your crappy attitude.

Is people like you that gives Blu-ray fans a bad name.

[Post edited by wii-lite on Mar 18, 2008]

Jeez, Kuc.... I really considered you to be the FEW open-minded members on this board. I really did. I own a PS3, for blu-ray's sake, & I don't even talk $h!t like that... LIKE THE OTHER FanBOOBS that has replied to my less-than-popular topics.

C'mon MAN... don't be the 5-year blu ray fanboys... like the others. I'm jus' sayin'. BUT YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO YOUR OPINION.

ummmmmmmmmmmm, dude your spanish sucks, i never said shit!.... mierda=shit. if you look at the original post i never said that, so go back to spanish class.

I just though it would be funny to do a post in spanish, lol, see what you guys would say. basically im with LH. i take highdef audio, and video anyday.

As a Blu-ray supporter, I love the quality... but will be the first to admit that the Super-Up could very well cause a BIG headache for BD's adoption.

Had dinner last night with some close friends (the average 'joe' who have SD-DVD only, but also own HDTV and/or a cable/satellite box too) and I mentioned the Super-Up technology (note: they know I'm already an HD fan). Well, both friends were interested in Toshiba's new tech! Despite not knowing more details, after describing how it will significantly improve their SD-DVD discs, if the player prices are affordable then the friends would really consider buying it... instead of Blu-ray.

As for myself, once you've continually experienced the great HD quality of Blu-ray, well, Super-Up just cannot measure up to it, although it WILL provide the best quality possible for SD-DVD, so even I might consider a S-Up player at some point. But for the continued building of a movie/concert collection, Blu-ray Hi-Def is where I'll be making disc purchases primarily... and with lower prices probably (partially due to Toshiba's new tech competition).

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Mar 18, 2008]

Back in the day, we called a thread like this FUD!!!!!

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ummmmmmmmmmmm, dude your spanish sucks, i never said shit!.... mierda=shit. if you look at the original post i never said that, so go back to spanish class.

I was actually born and raised in Mexico City. In the original post you said "porquería" which originally refers to the filth or mess found inside a "porqueriza" which means pigsty, and what's inside a pigsty? Therefore, "porquería" literally means "pile of crap" or "$#it". So my Spanish is quite fine. Don't worry, I'l edit it to "correctly" express what you said (same thing if you ask me).

dude since when is Mexico spanish the most spoken? you can say it means whatever... but you know even other spanish nationalities make fun of mexicans.

it was a joke, give it a rest.

LH I totally agree, if, and If it does.. Ill give it a shot. But bluray tho...is still bluray.

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it was a joke, give it a rest.

everyone is laughing so hard!

Back to topic, I don't think any amount of upconverting will match the quality of HD-DVD and Blu, although most likely it will be good for the masses. I rather watch movies in HD than upconverted. I hardly watch my SD-DVD movies anymore (only the big blockbuster titles), I mainly watch my HD's.

[Post edited by wii-lite on Mar 18, 2008]

wii-lite, for once I agree with you!

It's hard to go back to standard DVD after you've gotten used to high definition.

And for technical reasons, I doubt very much that "Super Resolution" applied to standard DVDs will offer anything close to the true detail afforded by high-def formats. If they can get deinterlacing at least to the quality of an outboard video processor costing thousands of $$$ for only a few hundred, I'd be happy. I'm not counting on it though.

Once you go blu you don't go back?!?

Oh, and as a tie-breaker, 'porqueria' is not shit...it's crap, well, I think so, since there is no 'correct' translation, and Babelfish doesn't have a translation for it...

I've heard "porqueria" a couple times (not many use it where I'm from), but in usage it's a rude substitute for "basura" meaning "garbage" or "junk".

I think this is pointed at the casual movie viewer not willing to pay $400 for a player, $30 for a single disc, and $1,500 for a decent HDTV. This is for the guy/girl who wants to pay $80 for a player, $1 - $22 for a disc, and already has a SDTV.

-=Edited for spelling=-

[Post edited by spoonard on Mar 18, 2008]

Sky you speak spanish?

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IF this Vaporware actually validates its claims, and it ACTUALLY OUTPUTS 960p - which is JUST 120pixels SHORT OF 1080p, which I DOUBT anyone can ACTUALLY DISCERN the pixel difference

There's a huge difference between a true 1080p transfer and an "output" of 1080p, 1080i, 960p etc. All my HD channels are broadcast in either 720p or 1080i, but there is a huge difference in the quality of these programs due to the source material. Some of the programs were shot in HD and others are older programs that benefit marginally over 480p by being output at 720p or 1080i. So, unless super upconversion really delivers what some think it can, a 960p output is completely meaningless.

My expectation is that this will be more the equivalent of a CGI-enhanced/animated version of the director's intent, as you are taking a lower-res version of the program and then interpolating the data, but I will of course check it out if it hits the market. The side-by-side comparisons will be very interesting to see how accurately the consumer-version of this technology can reproduce the fine textures that give a true lifelike feel to a film. Obviously, I'm dubious: this may please the average consumer but true movie-lovers aren't likely to buy into this.

kucoloco, I don't know Spanish... well perhaps a few words here and there in written form. Tagalog has many Spanish words incorporated into the language, but everything is pronounced so differently that I couldn't tell Spanish from Italian if I were listening to both!

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I'm dubious: this may please the average consumer but true movie-lovers aren't likely to buy into this.

Again, the verdict is still out on this Vaporware, which we will soon review at it's minute detail... should it EVER come out. I call it Vaporware since I have every SKEPTICAL reason to believe, that THIS IS ALL HYPE... until the box is on my arms, ready to spill its GOODS- but I'm not about to BAD-MOUTH the same Vaporware... just because I believe it's a BACKWARD maneuver by an electronic company... as some members here, already wholeheartedly expressed those are BASELESS OPINIONS without given FACTS... since the product is yet to be reviewed.

To be continued...

Spoonard,

There you go all making sense and stuff.... )

Skyhawk you are right!

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I've heard "porqueria" a couple times (not many use it where I'm from), but in usage it's a rude substitute for "basura" meaning "garbage" or "junk".

It's junk...there goes me being bilingual...

Hmm I'm a little confused here....
So...many of you have been saying that the Average Joe can't see enough of a difference between SD and Blu ray to make it worth upgrading.....but they supposedly will buy Super Upconversion when it isn't even as good as Blu Ray (hence even less of an upgrade from SD).

You people wouldn't make very good lawyers, your argument has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

I'll fuel the fire here a little bit. But if you consider the amount of DVDs many people own, would it not be worth it to a consumer to be able to see their existing collection in better quality for only the cost of a higher end DVD player (supposing price is reasonable). The BD option requires one to not only buy an expensive player and replace their existing collection...

CKwik... yeah, but if the Toshiba player is "not too expensive" and low-priced, will they make much profit? That's why many here are discussing this.

The problem Toshiba has is... if the price is too high, then people will not buy it and/or keep their cheaper regular 'upconversion' DVD player. But if the price is too low (so as to compete with others), well then does Toshiba make any money, since the parts/chips/etc will certainly cost more than a regular upconversion DVD player. So it's kind of a quandry for the company marketing/pricewise.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

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But if the price is too low (so as to compete with others), well then does Toshiba make any money,

Toshiba's fine as long as they break even on Super Upconversion DVD player.

The reason for Super Upconversion is to protect DVD movie sales and maintain royalty stream, not to profit from hardware itself.

As long as Super Upconversion prevents Blu-Ray from taking off for the next two years, Blu-Ray will become a niche format like LD and Toshiba wins.

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The BD option requires one to not only buy an expensive player and replace their existing collection...

This isn't true. Blu-ray players offer backwards compatibility with standard DVDs, and will also upconvert (scale/deinterlace) them and output 1080p. There is no requirement to replace your existing SD DVD library. Additionally, one can also keep their standard player. I keep mine in the rack because it's the only way I can enjoy my SACD collection.

Even so, undoubtedly many will replace their favorite SD titles with Blu-rays in order to enjoy them in high definition. But there is no requirement to do so.

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CKwik... yeah, but if the Toshiba player is "not too expensive" and low-priced, will they make much profit? That's why many here are discussing this.

The problem Toshiba has is... if the price is too high, then people will not buy it and/or keep their cheaper regular 'upconversion' DVD player. But if the price is too low (so as to compete with others), well then does Toshiba make any money, since the parts/chips/etc will certainly cost more than a regular upconversion DVD player. So it's kind of a quandry for the company marketing/pricewise.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

Absolutely. The motivation is there. Technology may or may not be.

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This isn't true. Blu-ray players offer backwards compatibility with standard DVDs, and will also upconvert (scale/deinterlace) them and output 1080p. There is no requirement to replace your existing SD DVD library. Additionally, one can also keep their standard player. I keep mine in the rack because it's the only way I can enjoy my SACD collection.

Even so, undoubtedly many will replace their favorite SD titles with Blu-rays in order to enjoy them in high definition. But there is no requirement to do so.

Yes, they offer BC, but they are currently still expensive. I'm working under condition, which I stated, that this super upconversion is reasonably priced. Of course, it could be released at the same entry levl prices as BD. Who knows. It would be unlikely that Super-Upconversion can compete with BD at the same price levels though. If it were to be used, it would likely be done if and when it could be done at a competetive price.

That said, unless BD's BC includes super-upconversion, it may not be able to match the upconverting quality. Of course, if such a device existed, it could also make for a more expensive BD player (than the current entry level models).

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Yes, they offer BC, but they are currently still expensive. I'm working under condition, which I stated, that this super upconversion is reasonably priced.

Blu-ray players however are currently available, and are currently selling. And I'm sure their price will drop as more CE companies and players enter the market place. I'm also fairly confident that Blu-ray players themselves will improve their upconverting ability with standard DVDs over the next several years.

If (A huge IF here) they can include upconversion within 3 to 5 years within a $200 player as good as a iScan VP50 pro retailing for ever $3,000 today ($3,500 MSRP), they'll be doing pretty darn good. And yes, it may impact the motivation to replace all but the favorite titles with Blu-ray in current standard DVD collections in the future - especially those with smaller screens and/or further seating distances.

But if Toshiba can come up with a way to convert standard DVDs to 1 gazillion pixel 3-D holographic images with full color for $200, it might give Blu-ray a real run for its money! Well that's including 10 free disks of course....

Deadmeat said -

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"The reason for Super Upconversion is to protect DVD movie sales and maintain royalty stream, not to profit from hardware itself.

As long as Super Upconversion prevents Blu-Ray from taking off for the next two years, Blu-Ray will become a niche format like LD and Toshiba wins."

Thanks - I do see your point... that Toshiba's DVD royalty stream would still be maintained indefinitely, or at least still be the #1 (dominant) in any format's SW sales (and DVD patents are primarily controlled by Toshiba). Now I see the thinking behind this. Well, we will see if this plan works (if actually implemented).

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

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Thanks - I do see your point... that Toshiba's DVD royalty stream would still be maintained indefinitely, or at least still be the #1 (dominant) in any format's SW sales (and DVD patents are primarily controlled by Toshiba). Now I see the thinking behind this. Well, we will see if this plan works (if actually implemented).

That's ALL GOOD 'N DANDY for Toshiba - should this Vaporware ACTUALLY DOES what it's suppose to do... but what does Microsoft & Panasonic get out of it- given that these boxes NEED to be inexpensive enough, for the MAJORITY to buy? I can see Microsoft announcing ANOTHER ADD-ON movie player for its 360 (which should be cheaper than the standalone), but how about Panasonic? Will they build competing standalones, as Toshiba themselves?

[Post edited by xplaytendo on Mar 20, 2008]

Hendrix, you may want to do a search on that guy's nick (Deadmeat) on Hidefdigest, as he was banned twice (now perm banned) for doing exactly what he's doing now. He was banned from Avsforum first, and all his posts deleted... but at least HidefDigest only banned him and closed the threads he started so you can read his nonsense. It's pretty hard to be banned permanently by posting on their smack down forum, but obviously at least one person has managed to do it. He started posting here afterwards because he has been banned from every other site on the internet.

In other words, he's not worth a reply and Henning should ban him ASAP. He's only here to make trouble and disrupt the forum for attention by making up things. Seriously, do a search on his nick. This guy is either insane or just a 9 year old out of control. Either way he doesn't deserve the time of day from anyone. Just ignore.

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Mar 20, 2008]

Skyhawk... well, OK - the above^ info is very revealing. So I guess this new tech info is controversial right now, and like xplaytendo said - vaporware. We'll just have to stay tuned.

-JIMI (the Voodoo Child)

xplaytendo

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what does Microsoft & Panasonic get out of it-

Microsoft : Stops the spread of Java in consumer electronics.
Panasonic : Panasonic holds a substantial patent position in DVD that they would like to protect.

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I can see Microsoft announcing ANOTHER ADD-ON movie player for its 360

Add-on is not needed. A simple firmware update makes Xbox 360s DVD2 compatible.

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Will they build competing standalones, as Toshiba themselves?

That's something we will have to wait and see.

Skyhawk

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Hendrix, you may want to do a search on that guy's nick (Deadmeat) on Hidefdigest, as he was banned twice (now perm banned) for doing exactly what he's doing now.

And do you find what I am doing here a bannable offense?

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He was banned from Avsforum first

Well, the mod made a terrible mistake on that one. Well, some racist Blu-Ray fan asked if I had trouble with Amir Majidimehr since his sounded Arabic, and I said I had no problem with Arabs, but the mod took it as a racist comment since avsforum has zero tolerance policy on racism or something like that and instantly banned me. That ban was hilarious.

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but at least HidefDigest only banned him and closed the threads he started so you can read his nonsense.

Well, they are no different from what I post here, like you said so yourself.

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It's pretty hard to be banned permanently by posting on their smack down forum

Actually it is pretty easy if you become the target of Blu-Ray fans. They will keep reporting everything you post, and it takes just one pro-Blu-Ray mod to decide that banning me is simplier than banning hundreds of Blu-Ray fans.

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In other words, he's not worth a reply and Henning should ban him ASAP.

Well, I am afraid you would be banned before me.

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He's only here to make trouble and disrupt the forum for attention by making up things.

Well, Super Upconverting DVD player as a counter to Blu-Ray is confirmed by Toshiba CEO himself during his interview with WSJ.
DVD2 project is undisputable.

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do a search on his nick.

Yes please do so.

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So I guess this new tech info is controversial right now, and like xplaytendo said - vaporware.

It is not vaporware it has been demonstrated at various trade shows for a year now.

FYI... 5/30/08 Update



> Toshiba plans to release Super-Upconversion DVD player "by the end of the year"

~ Toshiba 'gets high resolution' from current DVDs ~

The Yomiuri Shimbun - By the end of the year, Toshiba Corp. plans to release a DVD player capable of producing high-resolution images from regular DVDs, company sources said Thursday.

The planned release of a model compatible with the current DVD format signifies an effort by the major electronic manufacturer to recover from a humiliating setback suffered in March after announcing its decision to withdraw from its HD DVD business, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal meant its defeat by a group of electronics makers, including Sony Corp., striving to promote the Blu-ray DVD format.

Standard DVD format is capable of playing a 350,000-pixel resolution. Blu-ray and other next-generation DVD formats have a resolution of about 2 million pixels, about six times greater than the current format.

Toshiba's new technology has been made possible by developing a large integrated circuit that can instantly convert images produced in the current format into high-resolution images.

This technology makes it possible to reproduce high-quality images comparable to Blu-ray video from current standard DVDs. Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida said his company will not market DVD players that are compatible with Blu-ray.

Instead, Toshiba intends to compete with the Blu-ray camp by selling DVD players fitted with LSIs at lower prices than those of Blu-ray models.

To achieve this goal, Toshiba will advertise its new player as a device with which consumers can enjoy a broader array of content than is available in the Blu-ray format, the sources said.

Toshiba's withdrawal decision in March marked the end of a six-year competition between the HD DVD and Blu-ray camps. Each was seeking to make its format the global standard.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)