Toshiba starts shipment of Super Upconversion chip samples. $50 in volume

http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/08/toshiba-releases-spursengine-graphics-co-processor-for-testing/

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Toshiba releases SpursEngine graphics co-processor for testing
Posted Apr 8th 2008 7:02AM by Thomas Ricker
Filed under: Misc. Gadgets

Toshiba just pushed its SpursEngine co-processor chip out the door for sampling. Derived from the Cell processor at the heart of Sony's PS3, the SpursEngine SE1000 contains 4 processor cores (not 8 like the Cell) and a hardware codec for encoding and decoding MPEG-2/H.264 video. It's designed to manhandle real-time graphics processing and video manipulation when used in a potent three-way with your computer's CPU and GPU. The processor is expected to cost as little as $50 by the time it appears in the first consumer electronics devices -- likely graphics cards -- early next year. A very good thing if the production experience is anything like the demonstrations we've seen.

Wow this soon already? Toshiba is really serious about this "super-upconvert", aren't they? I guess this could only mean that Toshiba had already in development the chip to add it to their HD-DVD players and now they are using it as a "life boat" in their war against Blu-ray.

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Wow this soon already? Toshiba is really serious about this "super-upconvert", aren't they? I guess this could only mean that Toshiba had already in development the chip to add it to their HD-DVD players and now they are using it as a "life boat" in their war against Blu-ray.

No, Super Upconversion project originates from their HDTV business. Given that the vast majority of source material fed into HDTV sets were SD, some kind of Super Upconversion was needed in HDTV sets as product differentiator.

Now that HD-DVD's dead, Toshiba's simply putting in Super Upconversion into DVD players as well as means of combating Blu-Ray.

Wow, a hardware H.264 decoder! Welcome to the Blu side Toshiba!

So I guess I can expect a firmware update for A2?

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So I guess I can expect a firmware update for A2?

Nope. You must buy a new DVD player with Super Upconversion built in.

Bring it on! I welcome super upconversion. I really was'nt ready for my large dvd collection to be obsolete just yet anyway.

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So I guess I can expect a firmware update for A2?
Nope. You must buy a new DVD player with Super Upconversion built in.

Not a good deal for HD DVD owners. This may be a dumb comment, but couldn't the chip be swopped? Just a shot in the dark.

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Not a good deal for HD DVD owners. This may be a dumb comment, but couldn't the chip be swopped? Just a shot in the dark.

Not possible. Just buy the Super Upconversion DVD player for $150 or something like that.

Decisions, decisions. Do I buy that new BD player or wait for a superupconvert player? Well, on the later, I think I'll stick with my A35 for a while. If I boufght both, I'll run out of HDMI outs not to mention the fact that my wife will throw me out of the house!

Enjoy the built-in scaler on your A35 and save your nickels and dimes for either a stand alone Blu-ray or a HD-DVD/Blu-ray combo player.

"Do I buy that new BD player or wait for a superupconvert player?" --Stevepro

Steve,

The superupconvert chip is only just now being tried out by player manufacturers. It wouldn't be incorporated in players until some time next year. And we don't even know what it will do yet or how much better it is than Toshiba's current upconversion. (We can presume the new chip is better, or Toshiba wouldn't be pushing it so hard, but until it's evaluated by independent reviewers, I wouldn't be holding my breath.) Go with the BD player for now.

John

Actually the chip is a graphics co-processor (not a "super upconversion chip"), and will be used in computers first (graphics cards). Although it encodes and decodes MPEG-2 & MPEG-4 (like some other GPUs), there is no inherent upconversion capability built in to the chip (such as motion adaptive deinterlacing). Functions like this would have to be driven by software and likely additional specialized hardware components, since the Spurs engine is not a single purpose processor.

Toshiba has given no idication this would appear in any DVD player, but has mentioned we might someday see it in some of their high-end LCD panel TVs for unspecified video processing tasks. With MPEG-4 decoding, I wouldn't be surprised if the first player we see this co-processor in is a Blu-ray player.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20080408/tc_pcworld/144231

Ru and John,

Thank you. I agree. As soon as I get my daughter's wedding out of the way in May, I'm buying the Panasonic BD30. I've waited long enough. Steve

If these chips are anywhere near as good as they are being hyped and can be on $100 DVD players I'll get one to make the DVD's look better.

I wonder if these chips will provide better looking upconversion than the Toshiba HD XA2's.

I love my XA2........

There are amazing things that can be derived from an effective DSP (Digital Signal Processing) Engine.

This might prove quite interesting if they combine the earlier 'SuperBit' technology concept, feed it to a Digital Processing Engine that is on the cutting edge of today's technology, plus add in Micro$oft's HDi Online interactivity.

I can only hope that the newer generation of DVD2 players can still employ playback of the HD DVD format.

If the studios realize that Blu Ray also has it's limitations(BD+ Cracked by SlySoft)(Limited Blu Ray Fabrication Lines), and there is a similar quality, yet cheaper path into the consumers homes, that might far best 480i SD DVD....

I still think there is a serious purpose for a 720p HDM format(DVD2, or S-DVD) to upgrade to, then to convince the masses from there that 1080p is the next step up in HDM.

The typical consumer will likely adopt cheaper and gradual 'baby steps' towards 1080p HD.

The entry price point of HD DVD and Blu-Ray was a bar that was set too high for the Wal-Mart consumer to begin with.

Only a few years back, the concept of 480p (progressive) was all of the rage, but almost no one owned a TV with a component input that could display it.

Now the 1080p HDMI 'Upscaler' players are all the rage, but 720p is the typical maximum resolution of todays new HDTV sets.

Not typical of the average consumer, but only the likely choice of the 'High End' HDTV enthusiasts on this board, the ' Full 1080p' TV set is very uncommon, being typically HDTV sets that only 1 year ago were retailing at over $3000.

An interim standard might likely destroy Blu Ray and HD DVD together (OK, HD DVD is already Dead ), because it is not consumer friendly from a point of price, or it's capabilities.

Probably more than 90% of the 'Consumers' out there DON'T understand what an HDMI cable is, and yet will pay $100 for one, where we here on DVDTOWN.com already know that the $5 one works as well as the $100+ one.

I would really like to see what this new Super UpConversion technology is capable of, before I spend any money on it, but if it improves DVD closer to 720p, and is still half the price of the cheapest Blu Ray player, I'll likely find a third HDM player amongst my P$3 and Toshiba HD-A35.

Crap, I think I might run out of HDMI ports on my 1080p HDTV after all

[Post edited by VideoCipher on Apr 8, 2008]

VideoCipher, why not petition the studios to release all their movies (for you - not me!) in 720p on single layer 25GB Blu-ray disks? That way you get your "in between" format, and maintain compatibility with current Blu-ray playback devices. This will save you from having to need yet another HDMI port!

Ok so my bitching and moaning, which some people said that I was doing, was on point. When this SUPER UPCONVERT BS came out a few weeks ago, I had voiced my opinion on this. And then someone basically said, " oh stop your bitching, Toshiba is planning a firmware update for ALL of the HD DVD supporters."

Well looks like I was correct, and my past comment about Toshiba milking us was ON POINT. Bottom line, they had planned this SUPER UPCONVERT way before the DEATH of HD DVD, and that in my books is called Theft By Deception!

sigh another attempt to confuse the market.
hddvd 2.

Everyone who bought a HD DVD player would have applied for the free movie offer - they have our details.

I know this as I recently asked the question about warranty (as I no longer have my original receipt) - The response was that proof of purchase will NOT be require.

So you never know they may offer HD-DVD owners a rebate against new players - it would also be a good way to establish a user base.

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Not typical of the average consumer, but only the likely choice of the 'High End' HDTV enthusiasts on this board, the ' Full 1080p' TV set is very uncommon, being typically HDTV sets that only 1 year ago were retailing at over $3000.

Cipher, I bought my full 1080p set in 4/07 and it retailed for$1800.

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Well looks like I was correct, and my past comment about Toshiba milking us was ON POINT. Bottom line, they had planned this SUPER UPCONVERT way before the DEATH of HD DVD, and that in my books is called Theft By Deception!

IB,

That was kinda my point all along. We'll see how these super upconverts stack up against the XA2 or A35 when and if they ever come out. If they are far superior to the HD DVD players upconverting abilities, then I think we HD DVD owners will have a legitimate gripe. If they are marginally superior or near equal: no big deal! Even so, moaning and groaning about it will get us nowhere anyway.

Hey Steve just a quick follow up, I guess I was just speaking the obvious. I am more pissed at Toshiba and I guess you can call that moaning. My whole point is what I said in my original thread, that Toshiba was developing this SUPER UPCONVERT way before HD DVD's death thats all.
It is what it is, and I will use my A2 until it goes BOOM. I am still happy with the quality of the player, and I still love the movies I have on HD DVD.

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Cipher, I bought my full 1080p set in 4/07 and it retailed for$1800.

Tony, I realize that, mine cost around $2250 a year ago as well, but they were rare and expensive nonetheless.

DLP and Plasma were cheaper than LCD, but even today, you see far more 720p sets selling than 1080p ones.

A major reason that they have started marking the newer sets as 'Full HD 1080p', so people know the difference, and buy the higher end model.

Go walk through Wal Mart's electronics section and check out how many of the 37" and larger screens are 1080p.

Depending the size of the store, there may be none, or a only single model that is 1080p.

Smaller screens aren't worth it, and many shoppers are looking at screen size and price, and not 720p vs 1080p.

Broadcast and Cable TV only go up to 1080i, and so far, the only benefits you get from a 1080p set will only be realized when hooked up to a BluRay or HD DVD player.

Oh, and those 'up-converters' too, although the average person buying the up-converting DVD player still probably has a 720p TV set at best.

Lots of people are paying more for the HDMI cable than they pay for the up-converter that they are using it with.

Consider yourself to be more among the 'elite' here, the average person on this board is far more familiar and knowledgeable with A/V equipment than most others are.

DVDTOWN goes beyond how big of a screen can I get for the cheapest price, and having to pay an extra $500 for the installers to deliver and set up your new HDTV purchase because you don't know how to connect the wiring.

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Broadcast and Cable TV only go up to 1080i, and so far, the only benefits you get from a 1080p set will only be realized when hooked up to a BluRay or HD DVD player.

Technically speaking, you require a 1080p set to resolve the information in a 1080i broadcast signal.

IB,

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were moaning. I apologize if you got that impression. I sure as hell have done my share of complaining so I'm not throwing rocks at other people. Besides, I'm in total agreement with you.

I got I Am Legend in the mail today from Amazon as well as Premonition from Xploited, both on HD DVD.

Steve

As always this really doesnt have anything to do with the topic at hand but does anybody remember when they tried to sell us dvd's with music on them. How did that go...The success of dvd movies was due in part to the format itself(a movie on a disc,no rewinding,instant access) more than picture quality. Saying that,"Why would joe blow adopt any high definition format"? Infact, most already think they have it.

I think what we are talking about here is a niche market. I hardly ever see anybody checking out the high definition discs when I am out and about. Infact it is my belief that what we have now with the upconversion players on the market,and there continued performance,is what the general public is going to buy into. What I am trying to say has already been discussed here,and that is this.

"The mass adoptance of high definition movies,will occur when digital downloads become more practical."

Until then, everything else is just for us....the niche market...LASERDISC part duex.

http://hdtvorg.co.uk/news/articles/2008040801.htm

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PS3 could power your Toshiba LCD TV
In stark contrast to the two companies high profile battle over the next generation optical disc formats (Blu-ray v HD DVD) Toshiba could soon be using Sony's PS3 cell processor to power its own LCD TV's.

Apparently, Toshiba are already working on a prototype LCD TV using the PS3 chip to "upscale standard-definition TV to a very close approximation of high-definition."

Having heard claims by other manufacturers that their latest image processing technology will take an SD feed and upscale it to HD quality, and having been disappointed with the results, we will remain skeptical in relation to these claims until we see the results for ourselves.

What is more certain however is that the new PS3 enabled Toshiba LCD TV's will be able to stream multiple video feeds simultaneously.

This is where Super Upconversion originally came from, as an HDTV upconverter.

> John J. Puccio

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And we don't even know what it will do yet or how much better it is than Toshiba's current upconversion.

It's a lot better than normal upconversion as Super Upconversion isn't "upconversion" at all(You can shoot Toshiba for the poor choice of words), demo pics were posted here.

> Skyhawk

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Actually the chip is a graphics co-processor (not a "super upconversion chip"

Whose primary usage in consumer electronics space is Super Upconversion.

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there is no inherent upconversion capability built in to the chip

Because you probably can't come up with a hardware based Super Resolution solution due to algorithmic complexity.

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Functions like this would have to be driven by software and likely additional specialized hardware components

Normal upconversion takes 0.3% of CPU time.

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Toshiba has given no idication this would appear in any DVD player

Actually "pretty soon" to battle Blu-Ray, according to CEO Nishida.

> Falcon01

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I wonder if these chips will provide better looking upconversion than the Toshiba HD XA2's.

The output of Super Upconversion is 960p native.

> theprof00

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sigh another attempt to confuse the market.
hddvd 2.

Well, Toshiba is happy as long as you don't switch to Blu-Ray and keep buying DVDs.

For those who are unfamiliar with Super Upconversion, here are demo pics.

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Technically speaking, you require a 1080p set to resolve the information in a 1080i broadcast signal.

You don't NEED a 1080p set to see 1080i video. You can see 1080i video PERFECTLY FINE on a 720p/1080i hdtv.