Politics, Environment and Rising Fuel Costs

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JJ79

I'm no enviro-Nazi, but maybe we should be looking at renewable fuels instead of depleting all the fossil fuels. Create several new industries (and jobs), clean up the environment AND be less beholden to petroleum...

Jason, thinking out loud

That's a good idea, Jason, however it's also idealistic thinking. That's not a bad thing, but, the reality is that "change" is slow in the coming, so, on our way to changing over to an alternative fuel source from "fissil fuels", we need a way to get gas prices down to a SANE price, so that the lower to middle class income housholds of America can afford to drive to work, buy groceries, and every other necessity that fuel costs have an affect on, which is everything! We're already past the inflation adjusted cost of fuel during the peak of the fuel crisis in the late 70's and early 80's, and fuel costs are expected to climb from here.

Recently, I believe it was USA Today, had an article that stated that national average fuel costs could go as high as $7/gal. THIS SUMMER! That may not happen, but I'd be willing to bet that every single person reading this post would not be surprised to see it happen.

I refuse to believe that there's nothing we (the tax payers) and our government can do, except to sit back and take it! This garbage affects everything from our base needs to our zeal for life. There has to be something we can do. This is no different than the mobsters of the teens and twenties forcing people to pay for "protection"... this is just on a much more grandiose scale.



- Josh

[Post edited by Nachtkriechen on Apr 23, 2008]

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That's not a bad thing, but, the reality is that "change" is slow in the coming

Agreed. Way back in the fourth or fifth grade, I did a project on the greenhouse effect. Very rudimentary stuff designed to make the subject easy to understand. Back then, we knew we had problems. That was about 20 years ago now. And where have we gotten? Nowhere. Change IS slow to happen, no doubt, but if we had listened to the people telling us there WAS a problem then, we'd be farther along than we are now. Isn't the first step to solving a problem admitting there is one?

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we need a way to get gas prices down to a SANE price, so that the lower to middle class income housholds of America can afford to drive to work, buy groceries, and every other necessity that fuel costs have an affect on, which is everything!

Again agreed, with a caveat. We either need a way to get gas prices down OR prevalent public transportation so we don't have as many cars on the road using the gas. The cities may have metro lines, subways or buses...the suburbs don't. One of the things I liked the most about Washington DC was the metro. Convenient and affordable. However, getting public transportation to everyone is a decades long process. Had we started it years ago, we'd be there. (Add into that Americans need to have their own car as a status symbol...)

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I refuse to believe that there's nothing we (the tax payers) and our government can do, except to sit back and take it!

We had a chance back in 2000 and 2004 to stem the tide. But one election was taken from the public while the other one was distorted away from the real issues. Gas prices have tripled since George W. Bush got into the White House. That's seven years, roughly speaking. He is an oil man. We all knew that, yet this country voted for him. And now we're shocked when Exxon makes $3 billion in profits with crude oil going to $117 a barrel? Seriously, we're shocked? Every economist says we're in a recession, Bush calls it an "economic slowdown."

Our chance to do something other than sit back and take it was gone the minute we stepped foot into Iraq. (Remember Mission Accomplished and the like? How about everyone saying we were absolutely right to invade and anyone who disagreed was un-American and a traitor?) We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into and, all these years later, still have no clue what we're doing. All while gas prices continue to soar, homes are foreclosed on and the BEST thing the president can think of doing is give people $600. (And McCain thinks getting rid of the 18 cent federal gas tax over the summer is going to make a difference! .18 times 10 gallons-my tank-comes out to a whopping $1.80. You can't even get a load of bread with that...and it's going to help the economy?)

Jason, running for Supreme Chancellor of the Universe

According to Cnn:

"There is a massive bidding war going on Ebay over Obamas half eaten waffle"...uhhhhhhh

Could this be a problem?

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need a way to get gas prices down to a SANE price, so that the lower to middle class income housholds of America can afford to drive to work

True, because all those lower to middle class Americans need their gass guzzling SUVs and big block chevy status symbols. God help it if anyone down there had to take personal responsibility for their purchase and lifestyle decisions. The government must bail ya'll out ASAP.

Almost forgot.

Iraq was suppose to be a cakewalk like it was the first time. I think we are all a little "shocked" that it isnt. (That would be the shock part in "SHOCK AND AWE" The awe part is what we are feeling now as in "Awe man...What in the hell have we gotten ourselves into."

News update:

Solid Gold Mickey Mouse statue can be yours for $30,000.(plus shipping)

I like the way you think, Jason... and I'd vote for ya (MAGRATHEA!)

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Isn't the first step to solving a problem admitting there is one?

True, and maybe these gas prices are the "hurt" we need to feel, for the nation as a whole to change. Though, that still leaves China using as much or more fuel as we are, and one of the reasons we're paying what we are at the pump.

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...OR prevalent public transportation so we don't have as many cars on the road using the gas. The cities may have metro lines, subways or buses...the suburbs don't. One of the things I liked the most about Washington DC was the metro. Convenient and affordable. However, getting public transportation to everyone is a decades long process.

Also true. I was stationed in Germany when I was in the Army, and you would not believe what a brilliant public transit system they have there! You can catch a bus at one point, which will connect with a street car at some point, which will eventually connect with a train. Within that system you can get almost anywhere in Germany! Simply brilliant.

However, because of price gouging within government funded contractors, a simple "light rail" line that may only run a short distance, will cost multi-millions, let alone a line that would significantly reduce all or most of the congested areas of any given city, which would go into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

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We had a chance back in 2000 and 2004 to stem the tide. But one election was taken from the public while the other one was distorted away from the real issues.

I'll partially agree with you there, however, that election (and in my opinion the current election as well) was more "damage control" than anything else. I don't think anyone thought that GWB was/is the ideal president, and in my opinion, Kerry did NOT, by any means fit in the "Commander In Chief" role, whatsoever, and I think we might be in a worse position than we are now, had Kerry been elected! In the military we have a saying... "Keep peace by preparing for war". I know a lot of people that would take issue with that statement, but, the plain and simple truth of it is that it is true, and does work.

Regardless, we need to try and move forward from here, and "here" is the current election, but we're in a similar "damage control situation with the current candidates. Hopefully, we as a country can make the best decision for our country in the upcoming election.

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We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into and, all these years later, still have no clue what we're doing.

Unfortunately, "hindsight is 20/20", and we can only make decisions based not only upon the information we're given, but, we're assuming or hoping the information we're given is accurate. We, as the public, had to make decisions based upon the information we were given at the time. With the corruption thats going on in Federal government, and the news media, who were originally supposed to help keep the government in check and keep us informed with accurate information, are now as much of a corrupted source as the ones they report on. They're a group of ravenous wolves concerned only with the most sensational story, or twisting a story to sound more sensational, because that's what get's them the most ratings. Then you look at whom owns some of the most respected news sources "CNN", (owned by Turner Broadcasting, a subsidiary of Time Warner) and it really makes you wonder if there's someone at the top controlling what news goes out, how the information is disseminated, and for what purpose.

And, now that I've written a small book here, I digress.



- Josh

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True, because all those lower to middle class Americans need their gass guzzling SUVs and big block chevy status symbols. God help it if anyone down there had to take personal responsibility for their purchase and lifestyle decisions. The government must bail ya'll out ASAP.

Skyhawk,

I think you may need to redefine your definition of "low to middle" class Americans. The only people I know of that can AFFORD to drive gas guzzling SUVs like the Chevy Taho, GM Hummer, or Ford Expedition, are the upper middle to upper (and I use the term lightly) class Americans. The only reason those people care about fuel costs is because it affects their profit margin! It has nothing to do with them surviving, which is what I was talking about.



- Josh

Nachtkriechen, no offence but anyone who is so poor that gas takes such a high proportion of their total income that even a doubling of gas prices would cause then to starve shouldn't have their own vehicle to begin with. And last time I visited down there, I saw very few people with small fuel efficient cars there in proportion to EVERY other country I've ever visited. Heck, the poorer people were driving big honkers too - only they were old and rusty!

Skyhawk it's not like it's any different here in Canada...give the poor Yanks a break.

I had a Jeep sold it, and now drive a Neon. I could afford a very nice new car...but somehow I feel free now.

Josh,

I think we're in agreement on nearly every single point, more or less. Whatcha doing for the next 50 years or so? Have any skeletons in the closet we need to worry about before running together?

Unfortunately, we are in a position where we have to not only fix the problems of today, but also try to prepare for tomorrow. IMHO, we're not doing well on either count. No one talks about what we really need to do: price gouging laws with teeth. Exxon Mobil made $40.6 billion in 2007. Shocked? Not really. Look at the price of gas. Want to ease the burden on Americans? Kick Detroit in the ass to get cranking out cars with better fuel efficiency. Mandate it. Make solar panels mandatory on new construction homes. Take the federal and state gas tax from the corporations based on the gallons they sell, not from the consumer.

I'm right there with you on the media. It's painfully obvious which way each of the networks skew. And even though I listen to Keith Olbermann, I know I need to filter everything coming out of his mouth for "left bias" just like I need to filter FOX News for "right bias." An impartial and independent media is what was supposed to keep the government in check. Our current media, consolidated to a few owners, isn't either of those things. And Rupert Murdoch is trying to buy Newsday proves the point.

(The government anti-trust laws are useless when the people in charge are partisan hacks. Just look at the FCC, biggest bunch of posers I've ever seen.)

Skyhawk,

I have a Dodge Neon. Roughly 10 gallons. With gas sitting at $3.69 (this morning's price in MI), that runs a minimum of $36.90 to fill up. I need to fill up once a week. That's $147 (roughly speaking) every month, not including the oil changes, maintenance and insurance. I'm lucky I'm in a position where housing and utilities aren't an issue. I also make a decent enough salary. For people working the minimum wage jobs and trying to get by, $147 or more can be devastating.

Jason, feeling smart

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Skyhawk it's not like it's any different here in Canada...give the poor Yanks a break.

Although Canada is probably closest in vehicle size and types driven, there is still a difference IMO - just not a huge one like many other countries. Also Canadian cities typically have a public transportation systems that provide service into the "rich" outer suburbs, and everyday commuting via public transportation seems to be more accepted and have less of a "loser/low class" stigma than within most US cities (not counting NYC).

Most Canadians are pretty used to catching the morning express bus on the nearest corner of their suburban street and seeing everyone carrying laptops and wearing suites. It's different in most American cities.

A disturbing trend I noticed many years ago is the adoption of gated communities in spreading suburban areas spaced around like farms (I've lived in more than one in the USA). They are typically not serviced by public transportation, and you have to get into your car and drive a distance just to rent a movie or buy a can of coke.

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For people working the minimum wage jobs and trying to get by, $147 or more can be devastating.

I know few people who make minimum wage and drive 400 miles per week (700 miles with an even more fuel efficient vehicle). To be honest, I know few if any minimum wage earners or welfare recipients who actually can afford a car since fuel is only one cost involved. There is also insurance, payments or initial cost, licensing, and maintenence). The extremely poor should consider public transportation, or if unavailable car pooling if they need/desire to travel such distances instead.

And Jason, weren't you the one being concerned about the environmental effects and price of gas? Yet you burn 10 gallons a week all by your lonesome, which equates to you contributing 200 pounds of CO2 gas to the atmosphere each and every week (over 10,000 pounds per year) just in your driving - not even counting the CO2 you contribute through electricity use, heating, etc. And whining about gas prices isn't really fair, when your high demand for this commodity contributes in part drives pump prices. Sometimes it's best to start by looking in your own backyard!

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Apr 23, 2008]

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The extremely poor should consider public transportation, or if unavailable car pooling if they need/desire to travel such distances instead.

We should all consider public transportation and push for it. A monorail system can link cities and run on something other than gas, for instance. Problem is the oil companies have every single politician in their pockets. That's why no one is willing to do jack shit about our reliance on oil. They make great signs and statements about it, but no material changes. Until we do, we're screwed.

Jason, pro-metro

I now live in Alberta, Canada, and I can't believe how many baffoons drive SUV's and big trucks. Only if people knew how much CO2 and CO one of those trucks are throwing into the atmosphere! The government should had out tax breaks, or rebate cheques for people that drive fuel efficient vehicles! Never mind how many little prissy wives drive Hummers... It is sickening!

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The government should had out tax breaks, or rebate cheques for people that drive fuel efficient vehicles!

They have been, for awhile now. And rebates start at like $1000, and much more (forget how much) if you buy a hybrid. And if you buy a gas guzzler, you get dinged a "fuel charge". Not sure how much that is, but when I bought my Rubicon is was a few hundred bucks.

I LOVE WHAT I AM READING.

I HOPE YOU ALL BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU TYPE.


oh btw. did i mention the fact that NEONS RULE?

[Post edited by bladerunner1 on Apr 23, 2008]

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Nachtkriechen, no offence but anyone who is so poor that gas takes such a high proportion of their total income that even a doubling of gas prices would cause then to starve shouldn't have their own vehicle to begin with. And last time I visited down there, I saw very few people with small fuel efficient cars there in proportion to EVERY other country I've ever visited. Heck, the poorer people were driving big honkers too - only they were old and rusty!

Hawk,

Didn't you say your wife has a 2002 Jeep Liberty? Consumer reports gave it a top pick for that year, but the main drawback was . . . gas milage!

Tim (just catchin' the hipo's)

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oh btw. did i mention the fact that NEONS RULE?

No, but isn't Charlton Heston dead?

I would be shocked if gas prices continue to raise, and we don't do anything. I believe that by gas prices going higher, will make us look for alternative fuels.

But back again to the environment, there have been many things we could be doing, like treating saltwater so that we can use it on our everyday tasks...or making sure that buildings are fuel efficient (and like said above, have solar panels) or can produce at least 25% of its energy by sun or wind...or (like also above) having a realiable transportation system...why is it that hundreds of millions of people around the world use it and us fat-asses don't? OH, nevermind ...

What can we do? Plant trees...which need water (oops)...carpool (which people don't like)...demand a mass transit system (more diesel, oops)...buy electric cars which need electricity that you can plug in your home...which in turn comes from coal plants (double oops)...buy carbon credits which only mean you pay other people to stop their production (oops, you don't do anything)...eliminate plastic bags...buy a wind generator for your house (which would be the coolest thing ever to have in our homes, even way cooler than an HDTV, and I'm not being sarcastic), or solar panels...and get tax credits for it...oh, and kick the government's butt so that legislators get their fat-asses moving...and kick out the republicans from the white house...and get Hillary in (hey, don't hate)...

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And Jason, weren't you the one being concerned about the environmental effects and price of gas? Yet you burn 10 gallons a week all by your lonesome, which equates to you contributing 200 pounds of CO2 gas to the atmosphere each and every week (over 10,000 pounds per year) just in your driving - not even counting the CO2 you contribute through electricity use, heating, etc. And whining about gas prices isn't really fair, when your high demand for this commodity contributes in part drives pump prices. Sometimes it's best to start by looking in your own backyard!

Indeed. So suggest to me an option. There is no public transportation between Waterford, MI and Rochester Hills, MI (where I work). Nada. My boyfriend works in the complete opposite direction from me, which would make us use more gas. Just about everyone in this area is retired, not needing to carpool to get to work. If I had a metro system like Washington DC available to me, I'd be using that. If I could walk to work, I would. (It's roughly 30 miles, btw.)

Jason, bamboozled

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Didn't you say your wife has a 2002 Jeep Liberty? Consumer reports gave it a top pick for that year, but the main drawback was . . . gas milage!

Yes I agree Tim, it has terrible gas mileage. But she only uses it to take the kids to soccer and get the groceries once a week (which is about .2 miles away). Sometimes we use it for outings on the weekend. But there is no darn way she puts as much as 30 dollars into that tank a month even with our MUCH higher prices in Canada. We both take the bus for our daily travels. During rush hour, it's a heck of a lot faster!

I'll also remind you Tim, that I'm not the one complaining about gas prices and the environment, yet I seem to be doing better than most anyway. So HIPPO THAT!

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Apr 23, 2008]

I'm in the same boat as Jason, without the boyfriend, of course. lol

I too have to travel 30 miles to work and Phoenix is rated as one of the worst cities when it comes to public transit. Sure, I could move closer to town (inner suburbia) but the housing cost doubles, so then I'm getting soaked on mortgage and I'm sure Jason faces the same issue. I could also move into the heart of the city with all the gang thumpers, 10db rap music 24/7, mass murderers, bumbs and drug dealers . . . yeah, no thanks. I live 30 miles away from home because when I'm at home I'd rather see the view of hell from a distance, not live in it. Either way, you can't win!

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I'll also remind you Tim, that I'm not the one complaining about gas prices and the environment, yet I seem to be doing better than most anyway. So HIPPO THAT!

LMAO!!!

Well, I haven't pointed the finger at any SUV owners, mainly because I too own a 2002 Liberty. lol However, I will agree people, including myself, do need to consider vehicles with much better gas milage. SUV's are basically a vehicle that say "I don't give a F**k!"

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Indeed. So suggest to me an option.

Jason, which venues have you used to advertise your desire to carpool? Just curious...

And don't you guys have the concept of "park 'n' ride" yet, or is that a Canadian thing only? (Never saw one when I lived in Florida or Colorado to be honest - but that was awhile back...)

But we all make lifestyle choices in what is important to us. You could relocate, or one or both of you could find a job closer to home. Yeah... it could be less money, or mean having a crappier place that you might mean a bigger mortgage. Like I said, we make choices.

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SUV's are basically a vehicle that say "I don't give a F**k!"

Excuse me Tim?

Haven't you heard the saying "My Jeep is NOT an SUV, and your SUV is Not a Jeep!"

And yes, this includes even the Jeep Liberty - but not those truly fake Jeeps - the Patriot and Compass. What were they thinking?

> Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (and oil)

No one has pointed this out... but had President Clinton NOT vetoed legislation (in the 1990s) - the only time that Congress agreed on oil drilling in a small section of the ANWR region - TODAY America would be benefiting from the increased oil production available there, which by some estimates (of the USA's daily consumption) would last up to 12 years... and that's just the oil we already know is there.

The possibility exists (of course) that there is even MORE OIL available in surrounding areas (not yet examined by underground 3-D images). Note: the areas desired by the oil industry is a fraction (a few thousand acres for now) of the almost 20 million acres of the entire reserve.

So when the democrats make their complaints, I remind them of Bill's veto! At least twice President Bush has tried to get Congressional support for ANWR oil production, but there's always been enough opposition (again led by democrats) to stifle the bill.

America (and the world) MUST have energy. Oil is still available in many areas, but we must have THE WILL to 'take it'. John McCain agrees with a strong energy policy (and ANWR drilling), so he gets my vote.

-JIMI LOVE (the Voodoo Child)

"My name is Al Gore and I should have been the President since 2000'"

Now going back to 2000 would Al Gore made a diffference?

Would the EV1 been destroyed by GM?

That reminds me, have you guys seen "Who killed the Electric Car?"

or "An Inconvenient Truth (2006)"?

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TODAY America would be benefiting from the increased oil production available there, which by some estimates (of the USA's daily consumption) would last up to 12 years

Err.. Hendrix, that's only if the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge oil reserves were used to supply 5% of the USA's oil needs. If it were to supply 100% of the USA oil consumption, it would last 215 days (at low estimate) or as high as 1.4 years with the highest estimate provided by the conservatives. Don't you read your own links?

Anyway, the good thing is that even though this is a drop in the bucket oil-wise, we could supply a lot of meat to US citizens by first killing off the caribou herd. Yummy!

But perhaps there's gold or some other resources there too. After all, the National Park system was created for future generations to exploit for resources. And we're already a future generation right?

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Apr 23, 2008]

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And yes, this includes even the Jeep Liberty - but not those truly fake Jeeps - the Patriot and Compass. What were they thinking?

I can't say I care for any of the new Jeep models, including the Liberty. The new models are all boxed up (the shoebox look) and lack in any sexy style like the Jeep Liberty we own. lol

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And don't you guys have the concept of "park 'n' ride" yet, or is that a Canadian thing only? (Never saw one when I lived in Florida or Colorado to be honest - but that was awhile back...)

We have one of those where I live Hawk, however it's closer to the main city and hardly worth the effort. Unless I worked in downtown Phoenix, I might save myself 7 to 8 miles, so what's the point? Besides, I work in Mesa, much farther from the Park n' Ride. Oh, well, again, you just can't win!

Ok, I do not know where everyone is from on here, but I am sure there are people from all over that visit this great web site. I am in the Pittsburgh PA area, and back in 1996 (only 12 years ago) my date one night (she is now my lovely wife) went out to eat. On the way home, I stopped at a BP Gas Station to fuel up my vehile. What did I pay for Gas you may ask? I payed a wopping .76 cents a gallon, thats right .76 cents a gallon. Bottom line, Political CROOKED BULLSHIT has brought Americans to our knees. What a shame!

God I wish I had the "writing skills" of some of you gents....Just drive a car that gets good gas miliege. Toyota makes a couple. Maybe this will help with the oil problem.(IF their really is one)

I do I ride a motorcycle, but it is what it is.

Err... Skyhawk, I certainly do read my own links, but it's a mystery why -you- felt that my reference to ANWR was somehow an indication of it supplying ALL of America's daily oil needs for any amount of time? I never led anyone to believe what you apprently assumed, in misunderstanding in my post, which you should read again.

However, ANWR would defnitely help in our supply, along with oil off the coast of Florida, California (and in-state), etc, and even more production out of the Gulf of Mexico [BP has a major new platform going online by fall 2009]. EVERY BIT OF OIL SUPPLY HELPS in our daily supply needs. Just like our great friends in Alberta Canada (your country), having increased the daily output of oil from the oil shales, soon to be almost 1 million barrels of oil per day, and yet even more in the future. This from an area that didn't provide oil production before... like ANWR, see?

Again, had President Clinton not vetoed that legislation, our oil needs would have more supply available out of Alaska, and the estimates say that based on the percentage of our daily needs, the supply from what we KNOW ALREADY of ANWR is that it's production would last for up to 12 years (read the link), and perhaps more with more exploration. Unfortunately, there was not enough congressional support back then to override the Clinton veto. Even the Alaskan citizens, government, etc were and are wanting for ANWR oil production.

As for Al Gore fans, that guy ought to feel embarassed. He easily could have won the election outright - even with Bush winning Florida(!) - if only he had won EITHER the states of Arkansas (Clinton's home state), or Tennesse (Gore's own home state, and where he was a senator from)... WoW - he blew it!.

-JIMI LOVE (the Voodoo Child)

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on Apr 23, 2008]

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Jason, which venues have you used to advertise your desire to carpool? Just curious...

You are absolutely right. I have not.

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And don't you guys have the concept of "park 'n' ride" yet, or is that a Canadian thing only? (Never saw one when I lived in Florida or Colorado to be honest - but that was awhile back...)

Maybe closer to the big cities, but I am about an hour outside of Detroit. There is no such thing as a "park and ride" in this area as far as I'm aware.

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You could relocate

Funnily enough, I did just relocate...farther away from where I used to live in order to be with the BF full time.

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or one or both of you could find a job closer to home. Yeah... it could be less money, or mean having a crappier place that you might mean a bigger mortgage.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to news from south of the border, but Michigan isn't exactly a hotbed for jobs. We've been in a worse recession than the rest of the country for a while now. This area...specifically the places to work...are all retail or one shipping/packing type plant. Not near our lines of work or what either of us want to do.

And the BF has paid off his house completely, so he owns it outright. I had a hard enough time getting him to make room for my stuff in March. You think he's moving to save gas?

Jason, very tired

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Even the Alaskan citizens, government, etc were and are wanting for ANWR oil production.

Now that is true. I spent a year in Alaska and got to know so many people there and they'd love to have the big oil boom back! Of course, being a citizen there, they get a revenue check every year for a couple grand from current oil revenue. The people I met hate the environmentalists -- they nick name them "Granolas".

Hey Tim... yeah, I knew about the annual oil royalty check, which varies every year (going up and down, depending on production), and the last time I checked you got about $1900, but it's not tax-free (of course) - right?

And your point about higher cost of groceries the last few months is supported by a front-page article (Business section) of today's USA Today paper, showing major increases in costs (10% to 20% higher on average) for many staples. Milk here in the Houston area is regularly $4, although most stores usually offer a "2-for-$6" deal. But if you need a gallon quick (from a local convenience store for example), the price is a whopping $5.

-JIMI LOVE (the Voodoo Child)

FYI...

> Food Costs A Major Worry For Consumers - from the 4/23/08 edition of USA Today.

-JIMI LOVE (the Voodoo Child)

JASON
uhhhhhh I wouldnt say the worst. I live in Ohio. Both of our states have been crushed by outSOURcing.

[Post edited by bladerunner1 on Apr 23, 2008]

What do you pay for gas guys? We pay $1.20 a Litre or about $5.00 a Gallon here in Canada.

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JASON
uhhhhhh I wouldnt say the worst. I live in Ohio. Both of our states have been crushed by outSOURcing.

Okay, maybe Pennsylvania and Ohio are in the same boat. I know the entire country is down, but this region (midwest) seems to be hit harder than most.

Jason, looking to move

We all care about our impact on the environment! Agreed!
But this is the funniest satire ever. I don't know how that guy kept a straight face.
http://break.com/index/fck-the-earth-day.html

Language warning if you have little ones near by!

The guy kicking the plants is the best!

[Post edited by Ironbull on Apr 24, 2008]

The problem with you is that people always blame, they never look for a way to fix the problem...blaming each other because we drive a truck (like me), a SUV, etc. is not the solution, it also isn't 'carpooling'...

Start a movement with a real solution instead of bitchin like little girls (no offense)...

Honestly, and it's the truth, once again, what most people (I can count me and a few of you out) want is to blame and have their hands clean...well, this is the year 2008, and we ALL are dirty...we can help avoid getting our hands dirty or we can just clean them and wait again until we get our hands dirty and clean them and wait and clean and wait and clean...

YUP, I am blaming my GOVERMENT and there SPIN on the entire OIL PURGING problem. You read my thought on here earlier and that is 100% true. Ever since Katrina, they started using the FUTURES market to bump up the price of gas. Then the next year, NOAA predicted a bad Hurricane season (which did not pan out) and Gas prices went up again (Futures Market) This has now been a trend, when an Eskimo farts in Alaska, the price goes up because the release of Methane in the atmosphere in the coming months( that is satire but to the point).

Oil should not raise the price of Gas, Gas should raise the price of oil. They (Goverment) say that they have found a reserve in Montana, that is 10 times of any reserve we have here in the US. But they say they have to use vertical drilling (spin) so it will cost billions to to drill. they won't tap the Alaskan oil reserve (ecxuse) because they are worried about the whack job in Venezula boosting the price of his oil for the US.

In closing, like my Dad always said, if you have no control over the situation, then let it go. We need to drive, we will continue to drive and the Goverment has us by the STONES. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year pass the Tilanol

Wow, did this thread heat up since I left off, yesterday!

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...anyone who is so poor that gas takes such a high proportion of their total income that even a doubling of gas prices would cause then to starve shouldn't have their own vehicle to begin with...

Skyhawk,

That's a pretty ignorant and arogant statement. It's also really easy to make a statement like that when you aren't in a situation where you can't AFFORD to live somewhere else, or AFFORD to choose where you WANT to work, or AFFORD to give up the safety of using your own vehicle.

Would you want your wife commuting to work with the "thugs" on the bus? Maybe crime isn't as high in Canada, but, most of the inner city transit busses I've seen (and ridden personally, in different cities around the U.S.) are ridden by a lot of miscreants and or mentally unstable people. I would only ride (or allow my wife to ride) the bus if it was safe enough to do so.

If I'm putting 10,000 - 20,000 lbs. of polutants into the air to get my wife and myself safely to work each day, so that we can LIVE, until something changes, then sobeit.


Jason,

I agree, fossil fuels are being depleted, and they are not renewable, nor are they helping our polution situation. Maybe this is one possible answer:

(1) Tax the oil companies as you mentioned to pay the higher prices. (2) Keep the cost of fuel at current rates (AFTER taxing the oil companies) and use those procedes to fund the "Agressive Alternative Fuel or Technologies Act" (my idea), that has an expiration date!

In other words, set an expiration date of 15-20 years from now, where this fuel tax Act will expire, and the scientists or powers that be, HAVE TO have an alternative for fossil fuels (which would include national consumption inflation of energy usage). The auto manufacturers and refineries, would have to follow suit. I think if this was a mandate, we would figure out a way to make it happen. After all, necessity is the mother of all invention!

Wind generators and solar panel mandates, also an excellent idea.

Something else we, as Americans can do in the interim, or, at least a fairly large portion of us can, is follow China's example. They are essentially a "motorcycle society". Some people have cars, but the vast majority of vehicles there are motorcycles or scooters. Most of the scooters built today get 100 miles per gallon. Even the "sport bikes" get 40 - 60 miles per gallon! Think of the savings there, folks.


Tim,

I knew you couldn't stay away from this thread. After all, it wouldn't be a political thread, here at DVD Town, without "Timmaaaay" on the panel!

But, I disagree with you on your statement that carpooling isn't the answer. Ok, maybe it isn't "the" answer, but it's "an" answer. Carpooling is just a smaller version of public transportation. It still helps.

Taking action is what we're really talking about in this thread. You see those commercials, occasionally, where they say "If every person replaced ONE incandescent light bulb in their home, with an energy efficient flourescent bulb, we'd save X amount of pollutants in the air, or, it would save $X,000, or, it would be the equivelant of taking X,000 of cars off of the roads.

However, how many people actually REPLACE those bulbs? Or, how many people take the little extra time to recycle? Or, how many people get up a little earlier, and inconvenience themselves a little to "carpool"? Not enough.

Taking action is also the changing of our perspectives. If even a small change is not made in our own lives, how can we expect large change to be made in local and federal government, let alone global?



- Josh

[Post edited by Nachtkriechen on Apr 24, 2008]

Quote:
But, I disagree with you on your statement that carpooling isn't the answer.

Where did I say that? I mentioned a Park n' Ride that would be totally pointless for my current situation, but dude, I have no issues with carpooling, and for that matter, no issues with Park n' Rides, either. I just don't have one close to my drive to work. I did carpool for a while with a friend I work with, the problem is sometimes our job keeps us in the office longer for one guy and not the other. Then there's the needing to stop at the store on the way home, but the other guy just wants to get home. In other words, it can be inconvenient but i'm not against it. If i said i was, i must have been drunk.

[Post edited by Tim Raynor on Apr 24, 2008]

OMG gas just hit $1.25 a litre!!! That's like $4 a gallon!

It's about $3.40 on the average here in Phoenix, AZ. Then again, I am the master of the obvious. lol

Quote:
Would you want your wife commuting to work with the "thugs" on the bus? Maybe crime isn't as high in Canada, but, most of the inner city transit busses I've seen (and ridden personally, in different cities around the U.S.) are ridden by a lot of miscreants and or mentally unstable people.

If this is true, high gas prices are the LAST things you guys down there should be worrying about. I would have thought there would be no crime on buses, cause everyone is packing a pistol?

Edit: BTW, my wife routinely takes buses alone - even in the "scary inner city".

Quote:
If I'm putting 10,000 - 20,000 lbs. of polutants into the air to get my wife and myself safely to work each day, so that we can LIVE, until something changes, then sobeit.

LIVE? Anyway, your wife's grandchildren I'm certain will thank you.

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Apr 24, 2008]

Quote:
OMG gas just hit $1.25 a litre!!! That's like $4 a gallon!

Err... that's almost $5 per gallon (actually $4.73 CDN).

tim, the picture wasn't directed at you. rather, it was directed at all the orgasmic jokers who keep proclaiming the end of the world. well, they're probably not doing much to save it, either.

Fuck the environment! Like any of you jackasses are going to alter the fate of this planet in any way...how dumb can you be?

[Post edited by JPSofCA on Apr 24, 2008]

JPS.....

May I ask you why you use The American Flag as your avitar? The comment you just made was stupid and foolish. What I see going on here is a pretty healthy debate/argument about the well being of our future. Change starts with discussion. Why must you feel that you have the right to deny ones right to free speech?

[Post edited by bladerunner1 on Apr 24, 2008]

I just wanted to see who'd be the first to get their panties in a bunch over my comment! LOL

I was just messing with you.

Quote:
May I ask you why you use The American Flag as your avitar?

Because, God bless my American education: I can spell avatar!

GawdBles my spelcheker!

All I need to know how to spell right now is Ass. And then point my finger at you. Joke on that funny boy.

Ofcoarse now I am only messing w/you....Avatar.....A....v...i...t...a...r......Avatar.

Hey, anything to bring the weekend closer!

I just donated 3,200 grains of rice at http://www.freerice.com!

[Post edited by JPSofCA on Apr 24, 2008]

Quote:
Fuck the environment! Like any of you jackasses are going to alter the fate of this planet in any way...how dumb can you be?

I like to believe we can change anything we put our minds to. We affect each other in little ways every day. If a friend has a problem, they know they can come and talk to me. Even a simply phone call or e-mail to say hi can change how someone looks at a day. And that's only one person.

Imagine if half the USA's population got behind a movement. Then take it a step further and imagine the entire country working toward one unified goal. And on a larger scale, imagine the good the entire world can do for each other, future generations and the planet if we really wanted to.

Jason, not the only dreamer

Agreed. Even the most corrupt company GM is taking step to produce a full line of Hybrid and Hydrogen powered vehicles this year. Interestingly enough, it still takes the same amount of fossil fuels to produce Hydrogen Power, which in turn still will produce CO2 gases and hurt the enviroment, But until the scientists catch on, Bush still looks like a hero, and he's not...

What needs to change is the governements of the USA and Canada need to do is have the power companies switch to solar and wind methods. Detroit and surrounding areas are still using some coal plants for power for crying out loud! New technologies like these still create more jobs and work. Current research indicates, that solar electricity will create a 400% increase in electrical work needed in a two year period. More jobs and more money, what's wrong with that?

I'm selling one of my cars this spring/summer, to cut down on the amount of energy we use. It's not that we can't afford it, it's just a matter of principle. By fall, we should have the market guaged, on what hybrid to buy. By this time next year, the goal is to have two hybrids.

[Post edited by ReaggieP on Apr 25, 2008]

skyhawk,

Part of discussing any particular topic, is trying to see the other person's point of view. If all you can do is look down your nose and scoff at another's life situation, you're no longer discussing, you're passing judgment.

While I'm sure you and your family have your own problems, from my perspective, life is pretty good for you. I guess it all comes down to perspectives.


Jason,

I think if we cut to the chase, we're not only talking about changing habits, but, a change in philosophy and principle. That's a monumental endeavor. Unfortunately, we as Americans have been slowly moving away from the "United" States of America, and the idea of "united we stand, divided we fall", to one of "all for me, just for me". As such, we're leaning closer to the "divided we fall" part of the saying.

If we can figure out a way to get everyone to care about more than just their own lives again, we can exact change.

ReggieP,

At least the American companies that are still producing the big V8s, have fuel efficient technology going into them, like Dodge's NDS, and Chevy's new hybrid electric V8 Tahoe.



- Josh

[Post edited by Nachtkriechen on Apr 25, 2008]

Why don't we start with these small wind turbines at www.bergey.com?...if I was given a tax break/credit for it, it would be a done deal...

[Post edited by mvckalel on Apr 25, 2008]

mvkalel,

I'm not positive, but, as I understand it, if your energy producing windmill not only completely provides all of the power used in your home, if you provide MORE power than you need, you put it back into the power grid, and the power companies are forced to buy back your power from you, at a premium. That's a check that keeps coming, versus a one time government kickback.



- Josh

[Post edited by Nachtkriechen on Apr 25, 2008]

Quote:
If all you can do is look down your nose and scoff at another's life situation, you're no longer discussing, you're passing judgment.

All I said was that a person on welfare or making minimum wage has no business complaining about gas prices when they shouldn't even own a car. As I said, insurance, maintenance, and licensing are another significant cost of car ownership. If gas prices doubling or even tripling is going to kill your budget, then gas in the first place takes too high of a percentage of your total income.

But I do know that cars for white Americans in particular are a cultural necessity, probably stemming from history when survival was dependent on owning a horse to get you around to your next source of water in the old west. I heard that the penalty for stealing a horse was hanging. I suppose the same historical attitude influences many Americans towards the necessity of having a loaded gun nearby in their home for "protection".

A car (and gun) are luxuries. If the USA decided to build communities that necessitated the car to live there in order to survive, it was due to this weird attitude. But I doubt many welfare or minimum wage earners live in those suburban white gated communities anyway.

[Post edited by Skyhawk on Apr 25, 2008]

I mean, it's a very expensive investment ($50k at least) for a package and if you live in California, you could get the state to help you pay for it...nice...I'm gona have to bug my legislators...

[Post edited by mvckalel on Apr 25, 2008]

Quote:
it's a very expensive investment ($50k at least) for a package

Interesting. There's a few factors you can use to calculate whether you might even break even with such a power generating option.

1. Capital cost (including interest if you take out a loan)
2. Minus the yearly savings in not paying the electrical bill
3. Minus the income derived from over-production that goes back to the grid.
4. Minus the rebate from your state/federal government.
5. Minus the increase in equity if/when you sold.

You would have to work this out for the various time duration you would live there... 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years.

I'm a bit lazy and wouldn't know your local details, but if you do work out the numbers I'd be mighty interested in seeing the result.

skyhawk,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're making a lot of assumptions about groups of people, based on hear say and speculation.


mvkalel,

I agree, the price of the technology does need to come down for this to become a reality. It would be cool if the rest of the US would get on board with tax breaks, or some type of REAL incentive for people to "go green".



- Josh

Quote:
You're making a lot of assumptions about groups of people, based on hear say and speculation.

Which assumptions, "hear say", and speculation? How about you be more specific and tell me why I'm wrong?

Quote:
...But I do know that cars for white Americans in particular are a cultural necessity...

Assumption: Where's your proof that this is the reason that ANY male, let alone a "white" males need a car within their culture?

Quote:
...probably stemming from history when survival was dependent on owning a horse to get you around to your next source of water in the old west...

Speculation: The mere usage of the word "probably", is also assuming, and sounds more like an urban legend, than any factual proof or reference.

Quote:
I heard that the penalty for stealing a horse was hanging. I suppose the same historical attitude influences many Americans towards the necessity of having a loaded gun nearby in their home for "protection".

Hear say: Again, the usage of the words "I heard" and "I suppose", makes it hear say, but, further, the content of this sentence does not come across as factual, nor have you provided links or proof of any of your conjecture. It comes across as angry anti-American rhetoric, that's more tabloid based than factual.

So, again, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.



- Josh

[Post edited by Nachtkriechen on Apr 25, 2008]

Nachtkriechen, don't you watch westerns?

In some states, the hanging penalty for horse theft is still in the books. Florida for one. Google it!

In the two US cities where I've lived, the buses that were provided in town were well utilized - but I've never seen a white person riding in one. Not one.

And yes, car ownership and driving are deeply rooted in the psych of American society - so much so that no country on earth has its communities and connecting infrastruct