Toshiba announces Super Upconversion DVD players due out in 2009

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080508/toshiba.htm
http://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/0805/09/news038.html



Toshiba confirms the arrival of first Super Upconversion DVD player in Fall 2009, along with CELL TV.

---

[Post edited by Deadmeat on May 8, 2008]

Can someone translate?

If true... 2009 huh? - THAT LONG?

Cause by next year we can expect Blu-ray players for $250 and under(?)... so which would you buy for your $250 > a SD-DVD super-upconversion player, or a Blu-ray HIGH DEFINITION player (also provides DVD upconversion, just not super-duper ) - ?

Yeah, you all know - I would buy the Blu-ray Hi-Def player!

So give it a shot Toshiba, but I bet you won't have a 'super-low' price for that player either! (they gotta get back some of the money lost on the HD-DVD investment)



_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

---

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on May 8, 2008]

Quote:
Cause by next year we can expect Blu-ray players for $250 and under(?)

Newly announced Blu-Ray players for the summer.

Panasonic player : $700
Pioneer player : $600 and $800

Quote:
... so which would you buy for your $250 > a SD-DVD super-upconvertion player, or a Blu-ray HIGH DEFINITION player (also provides DVD upconversion, just not 'super' ) - ?

You don't need to pay Blu-Ray premium with Super Upconversion.

Anyhow, this settles the arguement about whether Super Upconversion is vaporware or not, because it is announced and is comming in Fall 2009.

---

[Post edited by Deadmeat on May 8, 2008]

Take 2... Not -this- summer, but "next year we can expect Blu-ray players for $250 and under(?)... <this has been reported in recent comments from industry sources, as well as an announcement by Funai of a sub $300 player by THIS summer (don't even have to wait until next year).

And Deadmeat, please do NOT underestimate the power of Sony when it comes to their backing of Blu-ray. They have the largest capital investment in the format of anyone, and will BE READY to compete with Toshiba next year once the super-up players are released. I personally expect a low-priced, Sony-branded Blu-ray player before summer 2009.

Blu-ray is here to stay... get on board!

______________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Quote:
Take 2... Not -this- summer, but "next year we can expect Blu-ray players for $250 and under

$600->$250 in a year is a hell of price drop. Can't happen.

Quote:
as well as an announcement by Funai of a sub $300 player by THIS summer (don't even have to wait until next year).

Actually Amazon is selling that one for $350. Even Funai's having trouble lowering the cost.

Quote:
I personally expect a low-priced, Sony-branded Blu-ray player before summer 2009.

Sony Electronics VP was complaining about $500 being too cheap for a Blu-Ray player right after the demise of HD-DVD.

Deadmeat -

Quote:
"$600->$250 in a year is a hell of price drop. Can't happen."

You're talking about premium model players from major brands (excluding Denon and other 'super-premium' BD players ). I'm referring to the 'budget' line of forthcoming BD players (whether from a major name brand or not). Maybe you missed it, but last December, for one week Sony had a special $299 sale on one of their stand-alone Blu-ray players (at Best Buy etc)... that's LAST DECEMBER.



Now Sony is releasing two more BD players this summer, which will have a street price between $350 to $500... and WHO KNOWS how low Sony will lower their price next year, on budget line models, so as to be competitive... especially with a 'super-up' Toshiba to battle against... see?

Then there is the other Blu-ray companies with decent-priced players (Samsung, Sharp, Philips, Oppo Digital etc) and others like the Funai brands, etc. And the strong advertising and promotions for HI-DEF discs and players. And the ecomomy will also force prices lower by next year. Too much is at $TAKE - and Sony will not allow Blu-ray to 'tank' in the marketplace.

Have you noticed how cheap some of Sony's standard DVD players are? There's no reason to doubt that within the next 18 months the company will release a budget-price BD player for $250 (or less), as well as the popular PS3 line (which is rumored to see a price-drop by the end of this year).

I'm really looking forward to Blu-ray Hi-Def editions of IRON MAN, INDIANA JONES 4 (and the others?), PRINCE CASPIAN, BATMAN: The Dark Knight, SPEED RACER, etc, etc... guessing that most will arrive by the Christmas selling season.

2009 > Lower Prices > More Players > More Sales > More Royalties > $UCCESS onward... Go Blu-ray!



_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

---

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on May 9, 2008]

Another thought... how successful will Toshiba be in convincing OTHER manufacturers to market their names on a 'super-up' player? Will it just be Toshiba marketing the player? This is very important, as Toshiba was considered the 'underdog' in their battle against Blu-ray (who had more companies with BD players), so if the 'Blu-ray' posse stays together and opposes any possible 'super-up' support... will Toshiba's super-up be a success in their forthcoming 'Round #2' with the BRDA next year?

... so much to think about. Would like to hear comments from others and their opinions and speculations.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Blah blah blah! Megabits/sec this and Blu-Ray that! Yadda yadda yadda! As long as upconverters are outselling and out marketing Blu-Ray, when a "super" upconverter hits stands the regular joes that are pushing that lower end market will go ahead and get one of those, with the mind set that it's "good enough" for them and that they don't have to pay the premium Blu prices for hardware and for software when upconversion is good enough for them. Especially when Blu-Ray still has no reason to lower prices. Blu-Ray may be here to stay, but it's sure not going anywhere any time soon when it has any level of competition that Sony can't buy out. What's happening now is proof of that.

---

[Post edited by spoonard on May 9, 2008]

Industry leadership comment... (May 6)

> Disney Chairman wants to see $300 Blu-ray players...

Calling household penetration of Blu-ray “modest,” Walt Disney Co. chairman and CEO Bob Iger May 6 told analysts the media giant remains a “true believer” in the format and patient regarding its success.

He said industry home video revenue would increase significantly if Blu-ray players retailed around $300. Sony’s PlayStation 3 game system with a Blu-ray drive currently is the cheapest player on the market at $399.

Iger said the average retail price for a Blu-ray movie is currently $5 higher than standard DVD, which he said boded well in the short term.

Disney hardly required Blu-ray to boost second quarter results.

Strong DVD sales of Enchanted, The Game Plan and Oscar winner No Country for Old Men helped Disney’s studio entertainment division post a 61% increase in second-quarter (ended March 29) operating income to $377 million, compared to $234 million during the prior-year quarter.

CFO Thomas Staggs said he expected DVD unit sales in the quarter had increased 15% compared to last year.

The division, which includes Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, reported Disney’s highest internal revenue growth at 18%, followed by parks and resorts (11%), consumer products (10%) and media networks (5%).

When asked about Warner Bros.’ decision to release a majority of its new DVDs on cable video-on-demand the same day, Iger said he shared the enthusiasm despite calling ongoing tests between studios and cable operators, “neither negative nor positive.”

“They’re not particularly conclusive,” he said.

The CEO described current VOD revenue as incremental and said he expected same-day DVD/VOD rollouts from the studios to occur over the next five years.

He said for Disney movies, families still prefer owning the DVD so their children can watch them repeatedly in the car and home.

“The sale of physical goods [DVD] will continue to be important for a long time and will continue to dominate the marketplace,” Iger said.

Studio entertainment revenue topped $1.8 billion, compared to $1.5 billion last year, driven by lower theatrical distribution expenses and continued box office success of National Treasure 2: Book of Secrets and Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus: Best of Both Worlds Concert Tour.

Overall, net income topped $1.1 billion on revenues exceeding $8.7 billion, compared to income of $931 million and revenues of $7.9 billion in the prior-year quarter.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Quote:
Can someone translate?

Yeah, I think I'll wait for the English version.

But if Toshiba did come out with a player in 2 years with improved upconversion, they might sell very well if it also plays Blu-ray movies, and comes at a cost of less than $300.

Well, "Super Up Conversion" will always be a nice feature to have in a video product.

I imagine that they could include this in "Download/Streaming" set top box that had a DVD drive as well. Team up with XBOX Live, Blockbuster, Netflix and/or Amazon that all has (or will very soon) a download service for movies and you would have quality good for most people.

If they want they can also license the feature to various AV receivers, DVD/Blu-ray players, projectors, TVs, Gaming Consoles and much more.

No matter how it is used - Good up conversion is always welcome.

---

[Post edited by Henning on May 9, 2008]

Quote:
But if Toshiba did come out with a player in 2 years with improved upconversion...

It is 2009, so you mean 1 year, right?

Henning,

It's 2008, so technically fall of 2009 would be about 1.5 years. Regardless, we haven't seen any actual announcement from Toshiba, but last I heard they were considering the technology for their panel TVs sometime in 2009 - which is probably a more logical place to put the technology (rather than in a DVD player). All standard sources can then be "upconverted", including cable TV. You don't need to duplicate the technology within every source device in your house.

Even with HD sources increasing over the next few years, there will be a demand for upscaling/deinterlacing standard-def material for a long time to come. There is no "magic" bullet, and other companies like Silicon Optix are also working hard to continually improve the performance of their products.

I don't see this having to do anything with Blu-ray, nor do I see "upconversion" of standard cable TV killing HD cable adoption in the future either. Granted, the industry has succeeded at creating some customer confusion in the difference between upconverted standard sources and high definition sources (such as by advertising DVD players as having 1080p full HD output!).

The demand for upconverting DVD players is bound to decrease over the next couple years, as consumers with HDTVs become more tuned into what high-def is and realize that these players can only playback standard DVD media. In 2 years, I would guess that more HDTV owners would want a Blu-ray player with superior upscaling capabilities for the DVDs they still have in their collection - rather than a dedicated machine for the purpose.

I agree. It would fit perfectly in TVs, projectors etc.

What it comes down to is again, price. If they can get the cost of the technology down there will always be the need for up scaling of images.

And no, up scaling will not have a big impact on Blu-ray. DVD and download will as we already have debated many times.

---

[Post edited by Henning on May 9, 2008]

Quote:
If they can get the cost of the technology down there will always be the need for up scaling of images.

Yeah, and when TVs with 6000x4000 resolution come out, we'll need some pretty powerful upconverters to make our Blu-ray movies look better

Quote:
And no, up scaling will not have a big impact on Blu-ray. DVD and download will as we already have debated many times.

I have no idea what you mean by DVD having a big impact on Blu-ray. Blu-ray is the new technology DVD the old, and all technology follows classic life-cycle curves of adoption and obsolescence. No one expects these curves to magically deviate for the first time in history, and have newer technology replace the older instantly. This isn't how it works. But we do have classic signs that DVD is in its downward slope of its life-cycle.

As far as downloading or VOD, I think it's a valid rental model that will obviously take market share away from conventional B&M rental outlets over the coming years.

---

[Post edited by Skyhawk on May 9, 2008]

Toshiba + Super Up Conversion = A day late and a buck short!!!

Come on now, can Toshiba be serious on this?

They are forecasting the release of this product about a 15 months from now...and expect to take on the proposed $200-$300 Blu-ray players that are expected to be common place in the market?

Unless Toshiba plans this unit to sell well below the $100 mark, this product will be another dead before arrival product.

And let's not even consider the competition from the existing so-called upconverting products already saturating the sub $100 market.

Aside from geeks and videophiles, is the average consumer even going to give a damn on this technology?

Hell, most people think that their squished out, analog cable, 4:3 ratio picture stretched out to 16:9 is High Definition

I know Toshiba too has deep pockets, but they can ill afford to take a hit on another wasted technology...

Toshiba, get back into bed with Cannon and release the SED television that you promised me 2-1/2 years ago

---

[Post edited by r-u-serious on May 9, 2008]

No offense Love. BLU-RAY players will not be $300 for 09' Too Soon for that. I say by Summer of 10'.

Skyhawk, we have seen Toshiba and others release product in the First and Second Quarters before, not always a fall product line up.

Toshiba, not like they are going to read this. Might be too late for this invention...

Japan is always the first beta test market. We may never see this hit shelves in North America. An if we do, Toshiba is hard up for sales, or we'll see it in 10' when the Blu-Ray prices hit sub $300.

The first Super Upconversion product is Toshiba laptop.

Quote:
but last I heard they were considering the technology for their panel TVs sometime in 2009 - which is probably a more logical place to put the technology

Also in DVD players, confirmed yesterday.

Quote:
All standard sources can then be "upconverted", including cable TV. You don't need to duplicate the technology within every source device in your house.

It's sort of like MPEG2 chip. It's in your TV set, DVD players, cable boxes, duplicated everywhere.

Quote:
I don't see this having to do anything with Blu-ray

Well then Blu-Ray fans have nothing to worry. Let high-end customers have their Blu-Ray players, while the mass consumers go for Super Upconversion DVD players.

Quote:
the demand for upconverting DVD players is bound to decrease over the next couple years

That's not what NPD says. DVD upconverter sales up 5%, Blu-Ray player sales down 38% this year. In fact, Blu-Ray player sales is so low NPD refuses to disclose them.

Quote:
I would guess that more HDTV owners would want a Blu-ray player with superior upscaling capabilities for the DVDs they still have in their collection

Or skip Blu-Ray feature and stick with DVD, since Super Upconverted output is almost as good as Blu-Ray to 95% of population.

Quote:
Come on now, can Toshiba be serious on this?

Yes.

Quote:
They are forecasting the release of this product about a 15 months from now...and expect to take on the proposed $200-$300 Blu-ray players that are expected to be common place in the market?

$200 Blu-Ray players won't be common place in Fall 2009 it won't exist at all.

Quote:
And let's not even consider the competition from the existing so-called upconverting products already saturating the sub $100 market.

Remember, this is not upconversion, but super upconversion. 960p quality out of existing DVD is what Toshiba's trying to sell here.

Quote:
Aside from geeks and videophiles, is the average consumer even going to give a damn on this technology?

They will notice the price difference between Super Upconversion DVD players and Blu-Ray players.

Why pay $30 for 1080p Blu-Ray discs when you can get 960p out of $5 bargain bin DVDs?

Quote:
I have no idea what you mean by DVD having a big impact on Blu-ray.

It comes down to if you believe that Blu-ray will ever outsell DVD in term of discs. DVD did it to VHS but I'm not sure Blu-ray can do the same to DVD. However, download has a real chance of doing it.

Blu-ray will no doubt continue to grow the next five years or so which is great and benefits the consumer. However, I find it doubtful that it will have the 10 years of growth that DVD had.

Also, it took Apple five years to beat conventional stores in terms of music with the iPod and the iTunes Music Store. I know it is another ball game with movies in terms of file size, set top boxes etc. but eventually price, ease of use and connivence will win the crowd over. Not megabits and X number of pixels.

Again, with music. Portability, instant gratification, fair prices, ease of use and timing was the reason of iTunes tremendous success. It made people accept that the sound was in lower quality than CDs.

---

[Post edited by Henning on May 9, 2008]

Super-upconversion is not the same thing as DVD2, is DVD2 following a different release time line??

Might we see that one sooner than later, since Panasonic is reported to be working on DVD2 along with Toshiba...

Still waiting to see what a Quad-Layer, Red Laser player can do.

2 layers MPEG-2, 2-Layers MPEG-4

Supposedly you would end up with a HD disc that would still play in an existing DVD player, or when inserted into a DVD2 player the resolution would be around 960p.

Super Up-Convert that, and I think I'll need to buy a new TV set to replace my outdated 1080p one

Sorry Cipher...cannot find the 960p attributes in the latest addenda from the ATSC steering committee...can you send me your copy

Quote:
Super-upconversion is not the same thing as DVD2, is DVD2 following a different release time line??

Super Upconversion is coming regardless of what happens with DVD2.

Quote:
Still waiting to see what a Quad-Layer, Red Laser player can do.

DVD2 is still a normal DVD, just HDi interactivity, networking, and possibly PiP added in. DVD2 plays on all DVD players, it is just that you have to get an Xbox 360 or DVD2 players to use the DVD2 feature.

OK, so we have this new upconversion players and a blu-ray player...however, the br is more expensive...obviously Average Joe will pick up an upconverter rather than blu-ray, specially since the movie/disc is cheaper in SD DVD...so what?

"I am NOT a Vaporware!!!!"

---

[Post edited by xplaytendo on May 9, 2008]

Well, DVD is 480i, but Blu-ray is 1080p. More and more people are going to buy large-size HDTV screens (or nice projectors, like Skyhawk, etc), and will notice the difference between super-up DVD (of the original 480i signal) vs 1080i of HD cable/satellite, and perhaps a visit to a friend's house to see 1080p from Blu-ray and/or HD-DVD...yes?

So... is ^that person going to settle for "second best" - 960p super-up? Or, will he/she be enticed by lower-price Blu-ray players in 2009-10, with some budget models that are going to run $300 or lower (Funai etc)... ?

Think about ^that - once a person see the quality difference, then IF the price is reasonable ($300 and under) it will be in Blu-ray's corner to attract that consumer to adopt BD. Of course, lower-priced DISCS will have to happen too(!), and this is slowly happening (although mainly thru discount sales), as the MSRP of most movies is still higher than DVD for now.

None of us really know what economic conditions will exist in a year or 18 months from now, but already we've had one report of a lower-priced sub-$300 player announced (Funai brand, made by Sony and Panasonic parts), and I certainly believe that with another big round of competition from Toshiba will mean the BRDA will make the move to lower player prices from major brands, in their still-to-come budget models of players. So, don't say (or rule out) that a future player with a street price of $250 (or less) won't happen 18 months from now, as it still remains to be seen, or not. But certainly the industry DOES seem to be headed that way (in my opinion).

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

The thing that gets me is that many thought that people would abandon SD DVD immediately and jump into blu-ray (or any other HD source) immediately...and that didn't happen. Many of these people still think that magically, people will jump into blu-ray and 'leave everything behind' ...really, come on whoever thought these new formats (both blu-ray and HD DVD) would take off immediately, or that it would take them a couple of months (not years) to take off, was daydreaming.

Yet again, people don't realize how SD DVD will always be the one to beat (regardless of downloading or streaming, which I support as a rental medium). SD DVD has gotten as into the mainstream as VHS did, but the only difference between the HD discs and SD DVD, is the 'higher quality audio and video' which to be honest, most Average Joes and Janes won't care for (they might notice it, but would care less), specially since they are not going to spend $30 buying a movie, when it takes $70/week to fill up their cars with gas.

Blu-ray will slowly grab market share, but never more than 50% AT ALL. It's like a commodity, unlike gas for our cars. Have in mind that I'm not blaming the economy, but that's the way most of us middle-class to lower-class families live we cannot afford those 50" LCDs or plasmas, much yet a $500 blu-ray player...thou, we can save for our Wiis...

Quote:
None of us really know what economic conditions will exist in a year or 18 months from now...

Uhhhh... hate to break this news to you but: YES WE DO KNOW the economic conditions in a year, or 18 months from now. It's going to get worse. Analysts are already predicting a $200/barrel crude oil, by the beginning of 2010.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayxRKcAZi630&refer=home
The cost of food will continue to rise (many nations already showing civil unrest over these prices). RECESSION is already here, and will continue beyond 2008.

Even if blu-ray shows up at $300 (which I highly doubt, due to gasoline cost to transport items)... people will THINK TWICE about buying a luxury... THAT STILL NEEDS a $1400 HDTV (that has 1080p to FULLY view blu-ray advantage).

None of the above economic crisis conditions have any quick fixes. In fact, THERE ISN'T ANY. The DVD format will prevail as the norm, beyond 2010.

As for the super upconverter.... pure Unadulterated, VAPORWARE.

---

[Post edited by xplaytendo on May 9, 2008]

mvckalel, xplaytendo...

BOTH of your posts above are excellent!

Those comments certainly do reflect the mainstream regarding the home video market, and DVD in particular. And definitely, DVD is king and will remain so for quite a few more years, with such large penetration into homes worldwide.

I'm just hoping that Blu-ray, -WHEN- they get lower in price (players/discs) will start to take a major chunk into home video usage, and keep growing so as to make it a success. And I believe it will, but obviously take time.

I'm definitely going to buy more of the major titles (discounted of course) a little more going forward, although I also rent every week too.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

And thanks for that linked report on OIL from Bloomberg, xplaytendo... now I'm REALLY getting depressed about the future! Wow, what will the ecomomy resemble day-to-day with $200+ oil!! It's much to ponder.

Man, the coming years are perhaps going to be a financial experience that none of us have ever imagined encountering... (it will definitely change the way we spend our supplemental income, on various items).

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Quote:
If true... 2009 huh? - THAT LONG?

Cause by next year we can expect Blu-ray players for $250 and under(?)... so which would you buy for your $250 > a SD-DVD super-upconversion player, or a Blu-ray HIGH DEFINITION player (also provides DVD upconversion, just not super-duper ) - ?

Yeah, you all know - I would buy the Blu-ray Hi-Def player!

So give it a shot Toshiba, but I bet you won't have a 'super-low' price for that player either! (they gotta get back some of the money lost on the HD-DVD investment)

Wow. I've never seen anybody on any forum go from an HD DVD cheerleader/Blu-ray hater to a Blu-ray cheerleader/HD DVD hater in such extreme form. No offense, LH, but I'm just calling it like I see it.

The first Sony Blu-ray player was like $1000 when it first came out in 2006 and now its like $400. Thats a pretty big price drop if you ask me. HD-DVD competition helped lower the price, but it happened. If Toshiba wants to introduce this super upconversion to the market I say let them, I just won't be buying from them. As much as I hate Sony and preferred Toshiba's HD-DVD I will not buy a "SUC" player. I want real HD, not 960p or whatever. I'm going to buy the LG BH 200 or maybe the BH300 if it will come out.

Hey Bruce! -

Quote:
"I've never seen anybody on any forum go from an HD DVD cheerleader/Blu-ray hater to a Blu-ray cheerleader/HD DVD hater in such extreme form."

Well, Blu-ray won the HD-disc format 'war'. (and I'm extremely passionate about hi-def! - hehe)

I've always liked HD-DVD too, giving the edge to Blu-ray on the extra protection added to the disc's surface (coating), as we've discussed before. IF HD-DVD had won, I'd be championing it just as strongly as Blu-ray, as like you, I'm a fan of high-def content.

Blu-ray does have a black eye with those 'firmware' compatibility issues (affecting primarly the Samsung player, one of which you own, as previously indicated), and I'm certainly critical of players that cannot play newer releases properly without a firmware update! <yet another issue that the BRDA -must- 'get behind them' and make a thing of the past if the mainstream is expected to adopt BD, and tell their friends about the quality. (a friend of mine has the same issues with his Samsung 1200 player).

Again, yes I'm a 'cheerleader' of HD , and that's both HD-DVD and Blu-ray... but only one is now alive, and growing, so my comments will reflect -that- realization. We can't change the behind-the-scenes alliances that made Blu-ray end up being the 'winner', but that is what happened (with Warner being the final factor in the battle), so now we have to move on and support it, for those that want to rent or buy great 1080p/24 hi-def content on disc.

Finally... everyone, 960 Super-Up DVD is NOT high-definition! Buy and use it (if you want) for SD-DVD, but Blu-ray is the format to support for HD.

~ Before the war ended...



_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

---

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on May 9, 2008]

Quote:
Also, it took Apple five years to beat conventional stores in terms of music with the iPod and the iTunes Music Store.

Hmm... Henning,

Last I heard, iTunes Music Store was only the second largest retailer of music in any form in 2007, behind Walmart's CD sales (according to NPD).

And also according to the same sources, legal downloaded music from ALL online companies put together was still under 10% of sales within the music industry in 2007.

Downloaded HD content has a much bigger hill to climb. And I find it amusing that you say Blu-ray sales will NEVER exceed DVD sales, however downloading will exceed Blu-ray sales. I would have expected downloading/VOD to grab marketshare from standard DVD sales first (for obvious reasons).

I think for current or potential HD DVD/BD owners, the SUC players would be for their current SD collection, rather than DVD movies they would buy going forward. If the PQ difference between similarly-priced upscalers and SUC players is significant, then they will be very successful in my opinion. Too many consumers have way too many DVDs for it not to be a success if it's at all like they claim. Whether or how much it would affect Blu-ray's penetration rate is another story, but personally I won't be buying a DVD over Blu-ray because it's not true HD. But I'd be thrilled to see my collection get another polish.

That's true, LH. We are all cheerleaders of HD.

Quote:
The first Sony Blu-ray player was like $1000 when it first came out in 2006 and now its like $400. Thats a pretty big price drop if you ask me.

Back in 2006, average cost of gasoline is a little over two & a half dollars, now... ALMOST three & a half dollars, BEFORE SUMMER HITS. That's per gallon.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mg_tt_usw.htm
Prices still climbing THAT WILL NO WAY MATCH the fluctuation retail price of neither blu-ray, nor HDTV screens.

14 to 15 gallons per week (average), for 52 weeks... THAT'S A PRETTY BIG PENNY, if you ask me.

---

[Post edited by xplaytendo on May 9, 2008]

Quote:
I think for current or potential HD DVD/BD owners, the SUC players would be for their current SD collection, rather than DVD movies they would buy going forward.

Toshiba's trying to stop 95% of consumers from migrating to Blu-Ray. Toshiba can't do anything to stop few videophiles from going Blu-Ray. But Super Upconversion will stop average J6Ps with HDTV from going Blu-Ray by minimizing the quality difference between DVD and Blu-Ray.

Quote:
Whether or how much it would affect Blu-ray's penetration rate is another story

Purpose of Super Upconversion is to not give J6Ps reasons to migrate to Blu-Ray.

As long as Toshiba can contain Blu-Ray player sales to less than 10% of market, Toshiba wins.

That's very good commentary^ above Deadmeat... and where the battle will center around - the mainstream J6P user of DVD, and whether that consumer will adopt into Blu-ray Hi-Def, or not.

Obviously I hope that Blu-ray will greatly surpass just "10%" of the market over the coming years, - but analysts say it will take 4-5 years to probably get to 50% (2012-2013), if projected adoption rates are realized.

Will depend on price and quality of the players/discs. Blu-ray must and will improve in functionality, but they need to do it by the 4th quarter of this year, or bad word of mouth will spread among the early J6P's adopting -then- (not the videophiles who already have) - and bad publicity ends up helping Toshiba's S-Up marketing plans by fall 2009.

But... once a consumer experiences REAL high-definition - an eye-opening experience on their friend's HDTV (or in-store demo) - I think more J6P's will adopt BD over time, especially when players get to $300 or less.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Quote:
But... once a consumer experiences REAL high-definition - an eye-opening experience on their friend's HDTV (or in-store demo) - I think more J6P's will adopt BD over time, especially when players get to $300 or less.

But that is the problem Hendrix...the average in-store demo is crap to begin with.

The tv's themselves spiked to the max out of the box so they will stand the smallest chance to compete with the store's fluorescent lighting, let alone the sets around them. Some goober running an s-video, or worse, a composite video connection to some circa 1980's dirtibution amp, being driven by some sub-standard dvd player that has been running in a back room for 8 years now.

Oh, the bad comparisons just write themselves in this day and age of modern electronics retailing

I contend, to this day, that had HD-DVD in-store demos been done on properly calibrated equipment, with the BBC Planet Earth series running on it, HD-DVD might have faired much better than it did

---

[Post edited by r-u-serious on May 9, 2008]

I agree with you r-u-serious, but in-store demos have been improving (as well as better employee training). I've been to several stores, like a Best Buy, Fry's, etc, and they usually will have a Sony or Samsung 1080p LCD HDTV hooked up to a Blu-ray player (HDMI), and you can really tell the excellent, better hi-def image quality. Usually a Blu-ray of Pirates/Carribean 2, RV, Ultraviolet, Ratatouille, Cars etc is playing, and it looks great. Plus some stores now have dedicated 'videophile' demo rooms (with lights out) to really show off the HDTV and/or BD disc.

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

I certainly won't be buying this either. Toshiba already left a pretty sour taste in my mouth. And I dont really even care if it was Sony's fault. I'm Blu-ray now. Now give me the movies I want!

Quote:
Now give me the movies I want!

That's where SUC would come in. Blu-ray will only offer a small fraction of the content available on DVD. One can choose to limit oneself to a limited selection of HD or a full range of only DVD, but real movie lovers would avail themselves to both.

Quote:
I'm going to buy the LG BH 200 or maybe the BH300 if it will come out.

I purchased the LG BH200 and it works like a charm. Love it, love it, love it!!! That machine will play anything I put in it! I even put a slice of bread in it and it toasted it perfectly!

The thing is also, like mentioned above, in order to take full advantage of blu-ray, you need a 1080p HDTV, however, the cheapest in price are the 720s, and most people don't know anything about 720 vs. 1080...

So in the end, upconversion onto their 720p sets sounds like the best option, specially for the price (and let's not get into the audio part of it).

No. Lets do get into the audio part of it because the new codecs destroy DVD. Here is where you will find a HUGE difference between the two. That is if you can decode them...And let's not forget the "special feature" aspects. I feel that this is blu-rays Trump card, if they decide to use it and make it different than DVD. And i'm not just talking about the features being in high def...it needs to do all the wonderful things that DVD promised along time ago, and more.

Quote:
One can choose to limit oneself to a limited selection of HD or a full range of only DVD, but real movie lovers would avail themselves to both.

True, I still rent standard DVDs that aren't on Blu-ray. But I'm not going to actually buy one.

Quote:
So in the end, upconversion onto their 720p sets sounds like the best option

For you perhaps. But speak for yourself and retract the "their".

Funny though, a few months back and you thought HD DVD was the best option for any HD set. Now you're saying standard DVD is? Why the sudden switch?

Quote:
No. Lets do get into the audio part of it because the new codecs destroy DVD. Here is where you will find a HUGE difference between the two. That is if you can decode them...And let's not forget the "special feature" aspects. I feel that this is blu-rays Trump card, if they decide to use it and make it different than DVD. And i'm not just talking about the features being in high def...it needs to do all the wonderful things that DVD promised along time ago, and more.

You had to go ruin it all by pulling the audio card. I guess Toshiba can't do any voodoo on the DVD audio, can't they? A lot of movies though are talkie dramas or comedies which aren't as reliant on heavy audio sonics to create an impression. Furthermore, those that will be 'content' with SUC are less likely to have HT audio connected (or connected properly) and may be using the TV speakers.

BruceAmes, FYI "SUC" is a more of a commercial jingle than a real technology. If we could magically convert 480i material into 1080p or whatever even if it took 2 weeks to process, the first market and most lucrative would be those standard def content owners who have their content broadcasted on HD cable and other mediums. If there was magic, studios and content owners would literally pay billions just to use such a technology - again - even if the processing took weeks to do its work.

Since no algorithm has been published that can do it in weeks, do you really think Toshiba has some magic that can do it instantly in real-time as the movie plays? Think about this carefully.

It should be self-evident that you cannot derive more information from a source than what is provided. Extra erroneous information is in fact known as an "artifact" in upconversion and that is a BAD thing. Motion compensation algorithms already take many frames into account in order to detect which deinterlacing method they should selectively use for selective image portions (movement). We've been doing this for a few years now.

The best we can hope for ever, is to have upconversion technology that makes your standard DVDs not look like crap - and as good as they look on a 26" CRT. Tha't the ultimate goal. Unfortunately, native upscaling tends to bring out the flaws in any DVD transfer, so any technology that makes DVDs not look like total crap on HDTV is going to be a big winner.

Quote:
And thanks for that linked report on OIL from Bloomberg, xplaytendo... now I'm REALLY getting depressed about the future! Wow, what will the economy resemble day-to-day with $200+ oil!! It's much to ponder.

Sh!t, I really need to find a better job that I can ride my bike to.

Preferably Downhill, BOTH WAYS

Quote:
No. Lets do get into the audio part of it because the new codecs destroy DVD.

Most people still listen to sound track via their TV set speakers. Very few people have home theater set up.

Quote:
True, I still rent standard DVDs that aren't on Blu-ray. But I'm not going to actually buy one.

Based on Amazon's sales chart, you are a minority.

Quote:
Furthermore, those that will be 'content' with SUC are less likely to have HT audio connected (or connected properly) and may be using the TV speakers.

Which describes 95% of population.

Quote:
BruceAmes, FYI "SUC" is a more of a commercial jingle than a real technology. If we could magically convert 480i material into 1080p or whatever even if it took 2 weeks to process, the first market and most lucrative would be those standard def content owners who have their content broadcasted on HD cable and other mediums.

Almost all anime Blu-Ray discs sold in Japan are super upconverted from SD source material.

Quote:
do you really think Toshiba has some magic that can do it instantly in real-time as the movie plays? Think about this carefully.

Yes they do. And they plan to launch TV sets and DVD players incorporating the "magic" in Fall 2009.

Quote:
It should be self-evident that you cannot derive more information from a source than what is provided.

Super Upconversion grabs that information from adjacent frames.

Quote:
The best we can hope for ever, is to have upconversion technology that makes your standard DVDs not look like crap

Toshiba was demonstrating Super Upconversion on their highest end HDTV sets and they looked HD.

Skyhawk said -

Quote:
"It should be self-evident that you cannot derive more information from a source than what is provided. Extra erroneous information is in fact known as an "artifact" in upconversion and that is a BAD thing. Motion compensation algorithms already take many frames into account in order to detect which deinterlacing method they should selectively use for selective image portions (movement)."

^That's a good point. I've noticed sometimes that regular progressive-scan 480p often looks quite good without additional upconversion (I've done comparisons of standard DVD content), especially during scenes with motion.

It also helps explain why DVDs output at 480p, and viewed on those 'enhanced definition' 480p 50" plasmas (or 480p front-projector systems) look fantastic from around 9-10 feet. Over the years, many have praised the 480p plasmas for their high quality 'plain' display of DVD's 480progressive-scan images - as the TVs don't have to do any further processing of the signal, since 480p is the native resolution of the display.

We need a reminder that the signal on SD-DVD is always 480i (converted to p from the player and/or TV display). No matter how well an upconverter processes that original 480i disc signal, it's still actually 480 lines of encoded information, which is then artificially upconverted, but will never 'literally' be more than a native 480i signal.

But HD-DVD and Blu-ray are different (1080p/24) as we all know, and enjoy!

_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

Skyhawk wrote:

Quote:
Hmm... Henning,

Last I heard, iTunes Music Store was only the second largest retailer of music in any form in 2007, behind Walmart's CD sales (according to NPD).

April this year the BBC reported iTunes had over taken Walmart to become the biggest seller in the US

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7329886.stm

Quote:
For you perhaps. But speak for yourself and retract the "their".

Funny though, a few months back and you thought HD DVD was the best option for any HD set. Now you're saying standard DVD is? Why the sudden switch?

First, this thread is about super upconversion. Second, all the post in this thread that I've made, have been about the Average Joe (in which I include myself). And third, well, I don't recall saying "HD DVD is the best option for any HD set"...I recall saying the most realiable and fully functional, but the thing about 'any HD set' doesn't come to mind...

Anyways, again, what I tried to imply is that since most TVs that are bought by Average Joe, Jane or Frank, they will be 720p, and in that case, upconversion will be a better option instead of paying more for the blu-ray which they will not take full advantage of the resolution...and like also stated before, they most than likely, will be listening to those movies with their TV speakers...and even when they might have a cheap HTIB (mine was $200 and it sounds really good), they don't have it setup properly (my brother told me about his friend having one of those 65" TVs and a cheap HTIB, with the speakers laid out in a row, in front of the TV )...

So no, HD DVD is not the best option for an HD set, blu-ray is when you have one of those 120hz, 1080p HDTVs hooked up to one of those expensive Onkyo receivers with those nice sets of speakers...

If you're the Average Joe and are actually stupid enough to buy an HDTV at Wal*mart or Target, then yes, it is a good chance you could get stuck with a 720p (prices are so chaep on those sets that the Average Joe just thinks their getting a great deal, but has no clue on the specks). When I shopped around over the last month, pretty much all the electronics chains I went to, 80 to 90% of the HDTVs I saw were all 1080p. So in reality, it just depends on where the Average Joe shops.

So you are going to tell me that Average Joe doesn't shop at Wal-Mart???

Come on, why spend $1000 on a 32" 1080p TV, when you can get a 40" 720p for the same price?

And provide some data for your 80%+ 1080p TVs in the market...

EDIT: btw, why are you 'stupid enough' when you buy at wal-mart or Target? I guess being able to brag about another 'classy' store is better...

---

[Post edited by mvckalel on May 10, 2008]

Quote:
And provide some data for your 80%+ 1080p TVs in the market...

Because when I shopped I literally counted every single set out of curiosity to see what type was obviously most popular, and guess what? There are a lot more 1080p's than you think. It's really not that hard to do when you can manage to get off your lazy ass and figure it out. Another way is to simply ask the Rep. and they'll gladly give you a count of what's on inventory through their database . . . you know, a database where you can sort by how many 1080p's are in stock. You have heard of how a dababase works on a computer, it's certainly nothing you need to go google or provide data to anyone?

Quote:
So you are going to tell me that Average Joe doesn't shop at Wal-Mart???

NO . . . I said "if" you're the Average Joe "and" are STUPID enough to shop at Wal*mart or Target! I never said the Average Joe DOSEN'T shop at Wal*mart, but I am implying that not all Average Joe's are that stupid. For the love of Pete, what's your f**king problem with me?!

Quote:
btw, why are you 'stupid enough' when you buy at wal-mart or Target?

Youy have to be kidding me? You're actually asking me that? Does quantity, selection or service ring any bells?

If it's not Walmart, it Costco or Sam's Club!!!


Hey I saw 46' VISIO 1080p LCD sets today for $999!

You are not getting it right?

I mean regardless of ability of insulting people, you don't know the Average Joe because you are not the Average Joe. Also, regardless of how you feel about a store that sells cheap things because they buy cheap and pay cheap wages, doesn't mean you have to call all its patrons STUPID...after all, remember, it's a business, they are there to make money, not help the world to fight global warming or world poverty...so call me stupid (since is the only way you feel good for not buying at wal-mart), but if a good HDTV was on sale on either target or wal-mart (they've been), I would buy it there...any 1080i, I may add...

Just yesterday I went to a very big furniture store, and the guy was telling this couple about resolution ("the biggest resolution available is 1920 by 1080") and how there is more 'clarity' to the picture...come on, is that it? How about telling them about i and p?

Remember it's harder to fall from a cloud, or a dream...

Ok, like I said before. Toshiba was on track to do this Super Upconversion for awhile. I would bet it was as far back as early fall of last year. What a joke that company has become. They strung us (HD DVD supporters) along throughout the Holidays 2007. Only to drop a bomb on us right after the first of the year by dropping HD DVD, you know, the technology they SO beleived in. Give me a flippin break, now they want to suck us into Super Upconversion. Well you see Toshiba, I already own a SU DVD player. It is called the A2, and thats what you should have put all your effort into.

Me, well the only thing I am buying is a Blu Ray player by years end. Not some OVER HYPED/OVERATED Super Upconversion DVD player.

Shame Shame Shame o0n you Toshiba....... " And all the people said AMEN!!!!"

mvckalel,

I don't think it's a major problem to buy a TV from Wal*mart or Target, if you've taken the time to do your research, ask friends or get resonable advice on a product that might be rated well. My point is that there are many electronics retail stores that offer a larger selection or simply carry a better product. It's not rocket science to figure out that you would have a bigger selection of products and quality if you purchased from Best Buy, CC, Ultimate Electronics, etc. because they are more specialized in this area than a glorified convienence store.

I think it's all in how you view these kind of retail places to shop. For example, Wal*mart and Target are not the place I think of going when I want to buy music CD's (especially Wal*mart because they sensor anything that would be Parental Advisory). Instead, I shop a local music store in town because I'm more likely to find the rare music I can't find in the local retail giants. I go to Wal*mart, but I'm not there for their small selection of electronics, I go there for good deals on common needs for the home (groceries, pharmacy, yard supplies, bathroom supplies, lamps, a vacuum, cheesy T-shirts, etc.). So yes, any Joe is stupid if they don't do their research and shop in the better places with a larger selection and better quality products. How is it not? I mean, I look at getting a decent HDTV as an investment and not some item that should be considered "stand by" just because it's cheap. It's like buying a decent musical instrument, you get what you pay for -- therefore I would not advise buying a quality HDTV at Wal*mart to anyone.

said it before and will say it again
toshiba is going to lose in this race. The only winner here is the toshiba backer microsoft.

I'm glad you guys are all for a company that not only rakes in billions of dollars selling incomplete software (and harware ...360) but is in this "war" to take advantage of your own confusion.

Quote:
So no, HD DVD is not the best option for an HD set, blu-ray is when you have one of those 120hz, 1080p HDTVs hooked up to one of those expensive Onkyo receivers with those nice sets of speakers...

Funny, HD sources (compared to standard DVD) offered a major improvement in quality even with my old Infocus X1 projector that had an 800x600 pixel array. And since this was a 4:3 (SVGA) aspect ratio, a major portion of those lines weren't even being used for HD widescreen material.

This being the case, I'd certainly say that HD sources offer a major improvement in PQ and detail to even those with 720p HDTV sets. But I ask my question again, why have you been this site's most persistent HD DVD fanboy if you saw no difference between it and standard DVD?

Quote:
Ok, like I said before. Toshiba was on track to do this Super Upconversion for awhile. I would bet it was as far back as early fall of last year. What a joke that company has become. They strung us (HD DVD supporters) along throughout the Holidays 2007. Only to drop a bomb on us right after the first of the year by dropping HD DVD, you know, the technology they SO beleived in. Give me a flippin break, now they want to suck us into Super Upconversion. Well you see Toshiba, I already own a SU DVD player. It is called the A2, and thats what you should have put all your effort into.

OMG IB, did you put too much Vinigar in that Salad dressing last night. Bitter Biker is back! Even if Toshiba was planning the SU Chip last year and a fall back plan or a side show hobby, what happened to HD DVD would of happened eventually. Even I knew that, but was in denial as well. Well calling it strung the Holidays is a bunch of crap. They had no idea that the WB was going to flip after Christmas! As far as they were concerned it was business as usual! Hell, I didn't think or most of the readers on this site wouldn't have predicted that? Maybe Skyhawk, but he know everything you know. Just so you know DVD2 and SU are different. SU has been in the works for quite some time, and had nothing to do with HD DVD. Now if DVD2 hits the shelves and your HD DVD player doesn't access the content, then you can give us this same speech again. For now SU is a technology to help the general public (That own a $75 DVD player) to buy a better DVD player ($199) vs spending $399 or more on