Another Report: Bluray Adoption Not What It Should Be

Ownership of standard DVD players is practically ubiquitous (87%)
Few report owning Blu-ray disc players (4%), Sony PlayStation 3 (5%), HD DVD players (6%) and the HD-DVD drive for the Xbox 360 (1% have external drive while 9% have an Xbox 360).

Only nine percent of non-Blu-ray player owners report being likely to purchase a Blu-ray disc player within the next year, even when made fully aware that Blu-ray is considered to be the definitive technology for high definition DVD players going forward.

Two-thirds of consumers are familiar with the recently resolved high-definition format war (67%) and seven in ten of them have heard that Blu-ray is the unofficial winner (69%).

Nearly a quarter (23%) of those aware of the format war report that they had been waiting for the rivalry to play itself out before purchasing a high definition player, but by April they had yet to do so.

Although one-third of consumers report owning a high definition television set (HDTV 35%), with incidence higher among males (41%) versus females (28%) and rising decidedly with household income (15% for those with less than $35K vs. 53% among those with $75K+), the percentage of HDTV owners likely to purchase a Blu-ray disc player is only 14 percent.

Current ownership of Blu-ray disc players among HDTV owners stands at 10 percent.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080514006228&newsLang=en

There's more at the link.

Personally I'm deciding between the LG BH200 or the PS3.

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[Post edited by Falcon01 on May 14, 2008]

Great info. But we already know this. The economy is in the toilet. Think of UMD, and then think Blu-ray... it's kinda hard not too. Sony sucks at promoting formats. They always have . That is why Toshiba should have won. Oh well.

Well, to be fair, Toshiba didn't exactly promote HD DVD either. At least not as much as it should have.

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Sony sucks at promoting formats. They always have . That is why Toshiba should have won.

Dude....Sony was WAYYYYY better at promoting the Blu Ray format than Toshiba with HD DVD, that's why Toshiba lost. I worry that the populace in general just doesn't care enough about the increase in quality they get....and that's why the poll results are what they are.

DAMN!!! THERE ARE MORE STAND-ALONE HD DVD PLAYERS THAN THERE ARE STAND-ALONE BLU-RAY PLAYERS EVEN THOUGH ONLY ONE COMPANY MADE HD DVD PLAYERS.

DAMN!!!

DAMN!!!

DAMN!!!

its hard to beat dvd, i still buy dvd movies , blu has a long way to go, idont see blu getn close to dvd for at least 4-5 years. i like hd media but the cost has made it a luxury market for tech people.

The only reason I bought a HD DVD player was because of the price. It was $149 and 9 free movies. I went into BB to buy an upconvert DVD player for $100 because I didn't want to get involved in the format war or pay $400 for a player. I have am HDTV and I can tell the differance in some of the movies I play between SD and HD just not enough to justify the $300 differance.

I think a main issue is that most people seem to think that the only thing Blu-Ray has to offer is a visual upgrade. I think we'll see more people jumping over once Disney's Platinum series comes out on Blu-Ray and other studios start using it to its fullest potential. Once people can see what the format can really do, and when it becomes affordable, I'm sure we'll see a sizable increase BR players, PS3s and HD movies sales.

I measure Blu-ray's progress with my local little Roger's video rental store. It's one of the small ones, which means they didn't even put any HD DVDs on sale like they said, they just sent them to the bigger Roger's rental outlets in the area.

Anyway, in January we had one wall unit - half Blu-ray, bottom half HD DVD. Now the HD DVDs are gone, and they just started their third wall unit. I also notice that a heck of a lot more movies are out too - at least 20 titles at a time. In January, I swear I might have been the only one renting either format ...

Lucily too, Rogers now is getting multiple copies of new Blu-ray releases so that I don't have to wait weeks before I can nab one like 2 months ago (well just 2 weeks now).

All annecdotal I know, but it's my "local indicator" at least.

Bosshog,
Sony won on the allure of the playstation name.That is why all the studios flocked. And i'm sure a little cash was involved too. Their were more standalone hd-dvd players in peoples homes at the time of it's death than standalone blu- ray players. Toshiba knew from the very begining that they would be in trouble once the PS3 was released. This is the real reason for their "combo" disc. I cant think of too many formats that Toshiba has failed to launch, but Sony has had quite a few.

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Sony won on the allure of the playstation name.

Bladerunner you are right about the PS3....but Toshiba losing was just as much a result of their utterly pathetic and virtually non-existant advertising/promotions.

I bought the A1 when it was first released because I'm technologically savvy, but at the time most people I talked to hadn't even heard of the technology. Blu Ray ads from the very beginning were much more flashy and appealing, the HD DVD stuff was brutal. I just hope that whoever was in charge of marketing at Toshiba got their ass fired.

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[Post edited by Bosshog7 on May 15, 2008]

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....but Toshiba losing was just as much a result of their utterly pathetic and virtually non-existant advertising/promotions.

BINGO!!!

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I just hope that whoever was in charge of marketing at Toshiba got their ass fired.

Amen brother!!

Remember how the Bestbuy stores would have a nice flashy bluray display setup in the home theatre section while the HD DVD display was in the back somewhere or in a corner?

More than a year later Bestbuy made a formal announcement that they were going to start recommending bluray players. LOL.

Falcon, our local Walmart still has the HD DVD display with the LCD TV playing the HD DVD loop commerical. Of course all the disks on that shelf are now Blu-ray (all 4 sides), except for 5 HD DVDs crammed together in one pocket. I kid you not - but the HD DVD commerical is still playing!

Now that I'm a playa' in the market, what makes me laugh are the inserts in the HD DVD cases of "coming soon" to HD DVD! LMAO!!!!

Exactly right. The promotion sucked. Toshiba sensed the pressure(PS3)and were a "smart" enough company to throw in the towel. Yaknow. So they didnt loose a ton o cash like Sony is.They sensed they had a D.O.A .product once Sony said Blu-Ray/Playstation in the same sentence. How could they not with the success of the previous two Playstations?

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[Post edited by bladerunner1 on May 15, 2008]

bladerunner said -

Quote:
"Toshiba sensed the pressure(PS3)and were a "smart" enough company to throw in the towel. Ya know. So they didn't lose a ton of cash like Sony is."

WRONG - Toshiba lost big on HD-DVD technology and subsidized player sales. And they 'threw in the towel' as one company after another abandoned HD-DVD support after Warner made their early Jan 'exit' announcement. Here's some news reports from a few months back...

> Toshiba swallows a billion dollars on HD-DVD - from March 12, 2008

> Toshiba projects $669 million loss on HD-DVD (and $459 million more) - from March 19, 2008

> Toshiba's net profits plunge 95% thanks to HD-DVD, flash prices - from April 25, 2008

Sony has not actually 'lost' a ton of cash, rather they've made a major investment in Blu-ray technology, and the PS3 (well over $1 billion to date), and are expected to start realizing profits within a few more years, as sales and adoption rates increase. So eventually they will get back their initial capital expenses, whereas Toshiba not only has lost more than $1 billion on HD-DVD, they are now investing in this 'SUC' (super upconversion) technology (for 2009), hoping to see financial success on the next go-around in disc improvement. A positive note - Toshiba PC laptops are steady sellers, and usually receive positive feedback from owners and industry reviews.



_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

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[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on May 15, 2008]

They could have lost so much more hendrix. PS3 profits? Expected? That sounds like hope to me. They better start selling a boatload very soon. Or it may LOSE the blu-ray drive alltogether...

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[Post edited by bladerunner1 on May 15, 2008]

Bladerunner1:

Quote:
They could have lost so much more hendrix. PS3 profits? Expected? That sounds like hope to me. They better start selling a boatload very soon. Or it may LOSE the blu-ray drive alltogether...

Sony is never going to take the BR drive out of the PS3. They would be abandoning everyone who older PS3s, and screwing new customers by forcing them to buy two PS3s to play all the games they wanted.

FYI:

Sony has about 13 million PS3s in the wild right now. XBox 360 has 19 million units in the wild - although its been out nearly twice as long as the PS3. Total Sony losses for FY07 were $124 million on $1.3 billion gaming division sales. Sony's total net income (after taxes) was $370 million. They have about $1 billion in cash right now to blow.

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they are now investing in this 'SUC' (super upconversion) technology (for 2009), hoping to see financial success on the next go-around in disc improvement. A positive note - Toshiba PC laptops are steady sellers, and usually receive positive feedback from owners and industry reviews.

A few things here. Toshiba took a loss with HD DVD, no doubt. However, despite of that they had a operating profit of 238.1 billion yen ($2.2 million) for the fiscal year that just ended. Also, Toshiba's main areas are nuclear energy and flash-memory-chip operations, not SUC or HD DVD for that matter. Lastly, SUC is not for optical discs alone. It could just as easily be used for cable network set-top boxes and download services like You Tube and others.

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[Post edited by Henning on May 16, 2008]

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Sony has about 13 million PS3s in the wild right now. XBox 360 has 19 million units in the wild - although its been out nearly twice as long as the PS3.

In the US the XBOX 360 also has more than twice as big a install base. 10.1 million compared with 4.3 million.

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[Post edited by Henning on May 16, 2008]

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However, despite of that they had a operating profit of 238.1 billion yen ($2.2 Billion)

pssst Henning: 1 billion Yen = $9,556,574.70 USD (as of closing yesterday).

Edit: Oops, my bad. It's early. Sony's net profit after taxes was actually $3.7 Billion USD. Later I'll be able to count decimal points more accurately.

And yes, the figures I provided were total sales world-wide - not representing any particular country, state/province, or town/city.

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on May 16, 2008]

Sorry Skyhawk, Not enough coffee or perhaps too much.

Thanks for the correction.

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[Post edited by Henning on May 16, 2008]

No Henning, not enough coffee for me. I better go pour one quickly!

In head currency conversion should only be attempted after 2 cups. 100 Yen = $1 USD (approximately). So just divide the Yen by 100 as you original did. I was wrong!

But I have come to a conclusion from these earning figures: These Japanese electronics companies are making way too much money. Didn't they get the memo that only oil and defence companies should be making that kind of coin?

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on May 16, 2008]

Does this mean that prices will fall on hardware? I'd like to get a PS3 but $400 plus 14% tax is still pricey for me. Especially when I'm still trying to get a Dolby TrueHD/ DTS HD receiver.

Hog,
I can see Sony testing the waters with a PS3 without the blu-ray drive. One with, One without. That is if this blu-ray thing doesnt start picking up steam. Which according to the thread topic, it doesnt seem to be. And game developers hate it. It wouldnt surprise me, thats all i'm saying. If it will help them sell more consoles, why wouldnt they lose it? The whole br group has already said to me that they dont really care about the consumer anyway by releasing a format that wasnt ready to be launched.

bladerunner,

I doubt that Sony would release a PS3 that couldn't play Blu-ray movies or GAMES. Then the console could only be used as an entertainment hub and Internet access. Secondly, the Blu-ray disk format has nothing to do with the added complexity of creating games on the format. This is due to the cell processor. However, tools and frameworks are maturing for it for that purpose.

i'm sorry. i was lead to believe that br wasnt needed to play hd games.

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i'm sorry. i was lead to believe that br wasnt needed to play hd games.

On an Xbox 360 you don't need Blu-ray to play "hd" games. You're getting your consoles mixed up there. All the Blu-ray games to date are apparently released on Blu-ray. This was done in order to remove space contraints from game developers. They certainly wouldn't go backwards, and destroy backwards compatibility among existing games with some new XBox clone they would call the "PS3 minus 3".

Hopefully we will even see game development companies take advantage of all that great space with exclusive titles.. but I bet it will be next year at the soonest.

Additionally, the Blu-ray part of the PS3 has dropped in price for Sony quicker than most other components in the device - namely because the cost of blue lasers has gone down pretty drastically over the last 6 months. (which were used in HD DVD players also).

Quote:
Additionally, the Blu-ray part of the PS3 has dropped in price for Sony quicker than most other components in the device - namely because the cost of blue lasers has gone down pretty drastically over the last 6 months. (which were used in HD DVD players also).

This is very true. And something that's equally as important is that fact that since Sony sold Toshiba it's manufacturing plant for the cell processor, this move reduced a lot of the overhead Sony had to deal with in producing them. Over time, this will also reduce the cost of manufacturing PS3 consoles.

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[Post edited by gvortex7 on May 16, 2008]

Quote:
This is very true. And something that's equally as important is that fact that since Sony sold Toshiba it's manufacturing plant for the cell processor, this move reduced a lot of the overhead Sony had to deal with in producing them. Over time, this will also reduce the cost of manufacturing PS3 consoles.

How could Sony remove what are arguably the two most important aspects of the Playstation 3?

These reports are just silly. It's May! On top of the obvious flaws in some of the stats that have been used in other doom-and-gloom reports, a much better indicator will be sales levels this Fall. I don't think any of the big media companies are panicking one way or another based on March-August sales levels. The media needs a story right now, so this is what a bunch of slobbering dogs are feeding on.

I can't say with certainty what's going to happen in the long run with Blu-ray, but trying to judge its success based on sales right now is very short-sighted and shows very little understanding of sales cycles and the planning involved with promotion timings.

sky,
nope. pretty sure i have my consoles right. and i'm also pretty sure ive seen some hd graphics coming out of red laser standard dvd. why would they go backwards? uhhhh. to compete with the 360. this all goes back to joe blow not caring about blu-ray. we have already had a couple "superior" formats that did not succeed.(sacd,dvd-audio,laserdisc,hd-dvd) so...thats it. just throwing it out there.

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sky,
nope. pretty sure i have my consoles right. and i'm also pretty sure ive seen some hd graphics coming out of red laser standard dvd. why would they go backwards? uhhhh. to compete with the 360. this all goes back to joe blow not caring about blu-ray. we have already had a couple "superior" formats that did not succeed.(sacd,dvd-audio,laserdisc,hd-dvd) so...thats it. just throwing it out there.

This is just ridiculous. There is no way Sony is going to release a PS3 without a Blu-Ray drive and the cell processor. The PS3 is doing just fine against the 360. It's not winning, but if some of the numbers I'm hearing are right, it's been selling much faster since the price drops. Blu-Ray won the format war because of the PS3 and the PS3 survived early on solely because of the BR drive, I see no reason why Sony would mess with a winning formula.

I'm calling it now -- The day Sony announces a PS3 without a Blu-Ray drive will be the day Sony announces it's withdrawal from the BDA. Consequently, the BDA will announce that they have partnered with Atari and Sega, who will be working together to make a new, Blu-Ray based game console/player/surround sound receiver/IPTV STB/convection oven.

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[Post edited by Fumbled_Revolution on May 18, 2008]

Quote:
i'm also pretty sure ive seen some hd graphics coming out of red laser standard dvd.

You probably didn't know this, but the PS3 already contains a red laser to offer backwards compatibility with media stored on standard DVD. However dropping the blue laser would kill compatibility with their current games, and they'd have to rename the PS3 to the PS2. But the PS2 has already been produced, and technology generally moves forward, rather than backward. Games (and other applications) over the next few years will likely demand more space rather than less. (DOH!)

Forget the technological rediculousness of your suggestion for a moment, and think of it from a marketing perspective. Sony and the other companies in the BDA have a lot to win in their promotion of Blu-ray. The inclusion of a Blu-ray player helps them by:

1. Getting more Blu-ray players into homes even if the primary or original purpose was for gameplay only. Having the format already in homes can be a huge influence on the adoption of the format for other purposes - such as influencing the future buyings decision to buy a standalone Blu-ray player.

2. There are still people that buy the PS3 primarily as a Blu-ray player. This is the converse to #1, in that the first console format into the house generally wins. If dad buys a PS3 for moves, it's more likely they'll buy little Johnny the same console next Christmas and start buying games. Also, those who buy the PS3 for movies and were never gamers might pick up and game at some point and be turned on.

3. There are people who buy the PS3 as a duel purpose machine - for both games and Blu-ray playback. Removing the Blu-ray capability would remove the main feature that distinguishes it from the XBox 360.

Common sense would have you completely turn around your statement, since removing the main feature that distinguishes it from the XBox 360 would be a "bad thing". In other words, Microsoft better think about including a Blu-ray drive in their console in order to better compete and level the playing field - at least in their next generation console. IMO they have no choice.

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[Post edited by Skyhawk on May 18, 2008]

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In other words, Microsoft better think about including a Blu-ray drive in their console in order to better compete and level the playing field - at least in their next generation console. IMO they have no choice.

Where are you getting this notion that Microsoft NEEDS a blu-ray player? Do you have some FACTUAL statistics realizing their downfall, due to lack of blu-ray support?

Xbox 360 (including the PS3 & Wii and future consoles) DOES NOT NEED a blu-ray player... THEY NEED GOOD GAMES! GOOD, repeat-playable games SELL THE CONSOLE... that & cheaper hardware cost.

Period.

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[Post edited by tylerdurden on May 18, 2008]

While the PS3 is a good game console, the XBOX360 has sold many more consoles despites it's red-ring-of-death problems and they still sell many more games. At least that's the way I understand it. Why would you think they would need a bluray player??

Maybe I'm off on the stats but from what I remember the Wii and the XBOX 360 have sold more than the PS3?

I'm not trying to knock the PS3 because to be honest at this moment if I was buying a game console I would buy it over the 360 just because of the bluray playback. I'm just saying what I remember. Heck wasn't the PS2 outselling the PS3 for a while?

Having said all that, I think the PS3 is gonna have a good holiday season this year.

1) There will be more good games available for it by that time.
2) Blurays victory will make it a more attractive option.

If they do a price reduction it would definitely sweeten the deal.

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[Post edited by Falcon01 on May 18, 2008]

Quote:
Where are you getting this notion that Microsoft NEEDS a blu-ray player? Do you have some FACTUAL statistics realizing their downfall, due to lack of blu-ray support?

Xbox 360 (including the PS3 & Wii and future consoles) DOES NOT NEED a blu-ray player... THEY NEED GOOD GAMES! GOOD, repeat-playable games SELL THE CONSOLE... that & cheaper hardware cost.

You’re totally right about good games being the key, of course, but they continually seem to require more and more space as they become increasingly complex and visually detailed. Some of the PS3 games are using the space afforded by dual-layer Blu-ray discs right now, although others have argued that it isn’t actually necessary. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that most high-end “hard-core gamer” games will eventually need 25Gb+, but I have no idea if that’s a few years from now or 10 years from now!

Sky,
Yeah. I'm hoping Sony doesnt dumb down it's console to compete with Microsoft. I'm hoping Sony will begin releasing 50g. games that make the 360 look sad. But they have yet to do this as of now. And we are NOW getting into a very important time for this console. Year2.

So with that being said (year 2) what games have you seen that are coming this year (2) that destroy what the 360 can do? I have yet to see ONE.

And I do not agree with your statement that this was developed as a game console first. NO WAY man...Sony wants the cash cow known as "movie profits". This is a blu-ray player pretending to be a game console. Sony tried using the PLAYSTATION name to launch blu-ray movies. It wasnt a bad idea really, it has just yet to take off like they thought it would. Gamers arent suckers.

btw. I own this console and just want to see its full potential. I am as shocked as everbody else that it has yet to take the world by storm. Same goes for PSP. The Wii and DS, two very inferior tech. products are smoking everybody. Please try to argue with that.?!

When the PS3 first hit the market it was marketed as a GAME CONSOLE, and there was barely any mention of it being a brooo-ray player, too. Even back then you could do a search on any retail store and it never showed up as a stand alone blu player. However, now when you do a search for a stand alone blu player the PS3 shows up every time, and probably because the damn machine has nothing better it can do than play brooo-ray movies because it doesn't have any games that are worthy to shout about. Even the friends I have that own the PS3 admit the games are nothing special at this time, but oh boy, it sure can play those Blu-movies! And SONY has had how long to get their crap together for decent games? Yeah, no thanks SONY, I'll stick with my LG BH200 and be happy that at least the majority of my purchase didn't land in SONY's greedy pocket.

ofcoarse it was marketed that way when it came out! it was the freakin PLAYSTATION 3. at that time what the hell was br? well now we know, and sonys true intentions have been revield. you said it yourself tim, lookup br...and what do you see? ps3.

btw. youve been kinda tame on here lately. are ya sick!

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btw. youve been kinda tame on here lately. are ya sick!

LMAO!!!

Nah, I'm still the same old bitchy bastard you've known all this time! lol

Sony are considering a disc free PS4

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Sony Computer Entertainment head Kaz Hirai has confirmed that the company is looking into disc-free network gaming for future generations, but insisted that the global infrastructure is not yet in place.

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/playstation/hirai-talks-about-playstation-future-360628

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Yeah. I'm hoping Sony doesnt dumb down it's console to compete with Microsoft.

Again, how would Sony removing one of the compelling features (Blu-ray playback) from their machines along with destroying compatibility with current games, help them compete rather than having the opposite effect? Those guys sitting at the BOD at Sony aren't stupid. Additionally, changing the medium will not make game authoring any easier. I think even considering the possibility (like thinking elephants will grow wings and fly) is darn right silly.

And yes, eventually it will be the opposite, and Microsoft will have to explore ways of delivering games on a medium with more space in a future console to remain competitive. Microsoft might be short-sighted at times, but not supid. Even they knew that a single 5 1/4 inch floppy would someday be to small to hold their operating system.

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"640 K ought to be enough for anybody."
-- Bill Gates, 1981

Skyhawk,
Your WAAAAY too smart man. I surrender.

But can you see this possibility if the PS3/BR thing doesnt "pick up"...PLAYSTATION 4!

Well, I think the best you can realistically hope for is a VHS tape player add-on for the current PS3 by the holidays. Since the PS3 already contains a capable standard DVD player, the idea is to add technology that would broaden its appeal - not lower it. After all, someone is obviously buying those combination DVD-VHS players at Walmart.

Perhaps by the PS4, they'll offer a built in VHS player if it doesn't increase the size of the unit too much.

They have recently discovered that 8-track cassette tapes can hold almost a terrabyte of information. Sony is looking into being able to read it quickly.

On a serious note, have you guys heard about an issue with the 80GB PS3s not being able to read PS2 games or something. I've been told today there's a low-key recall on the newer 80 GB consoles??

I almost bought one yesterday too. Geez.

So why do games need to be bigger? I mean isn't MGS4 just so big because of all the video. You can't play videos, well you could move aroundin them in Assasins creed. But still I am happy with current length. And I play alot of games. But when they are to long I find I don't stay interested. Plus I use game fly, so when the game is over I just get a new one. And as much as I like the 360 and have never really prefered any of the play stations to the competers I much say resistance 2 and socom sound fun. But not worth buying the ps3 for just 2 games.

Oh yeah and I thought I read some where that ps3 games took more code than they did for the same game on the 360. I could be wrong though
And one more thing, i am looking forward to my downloadabel content for GTA4 for the 360. A guy from Rockstar on the Opie and Anthony show was asked which system was best for this game and with out pause he said the 360.

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[Post edited by KungFuTaco on May 19, 2008]

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So why do games need to be bigger?

Although I suspect the day will come when games reach many terabytes in size and require a spinal socket for networked game play, you're right. The Commodore VIC-20 proved any game worth playing could fit on a 4K cartridge.

Releases 12 Jun/08

PlayStation 3 80GB Metal Gear Solid 4 Bundle - $499

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10105856&logon=&langid=EN

Do any of you know if this will be backwards compatible with PS2 games or is that out completely now? I've devided I'm getting a PS3 now (instead of the LG 200) because I'm getting a hidef camcorder and the PS3 plays AVCHD files. Sweet

Playstation 3 now plays AVCHD "files"

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89739

I don't think my brother's is but I thought they were suposed to be.

Falcon01

The PS3 will play a large amount of PS2 games how many depends on where you live.

In another example of Sony's customer focus the European 40gig PS3 with GTA costs around 627 USD. Yet its backwards compatibility is less than that of the US or Japan version.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/23/reduced_backwards_ps3_compatibility/