Treble.

What do you guys have your treble level set at. I until tonight had mine at max +6bd I decreased it to +2db after I heard some clipping in the tweeter of my center speaker during some shouting.
What should treble be set at?
Why do receivers even have that setting?

Quote:
Why do receivers even have that setting?

Because they should! I hate how most all receivers these days have the "we know what's best for you" settings! I prefer a decent graphic EQs, like in the old day of REAL stereo systems, where you could adjust the tone modeling to your taste. Now we get the "pick from our 12 settings until you find one you like" garbage. Not only should these systems have treble and bass they should also have a few mid-tones to adjust, but they simply do not these days. Instead the average consumer is treated like an audio idiot.

It's all a matter of how you like your tone when making adjustments. I find cranking the treble can increase the hiss tones you can get through ambient noise, but it can be compensated by making adjustments in the mid-range which many receivers these days don't offer, so then you only have the bass tones to compansate for it instead.

[Post edited by Tim Raynor on May 20, 2008]

And those standalone graphic equilizers with all the lights were fun to watch too!

Some people might say adjusting your treble/bass anywhere off zero is going to output audio in a way that wasn't intended by the producer/director/musicians whatever, but nothing could be further from the truth IMO. This is like saying a person should not even perform simple calibrations on their TV like brightness or contrast adjustment and leave everything at factory settings.

No one can tell you where these treble/bass settings should be. Obviously, if you start having trouble making out dialogue in movies, you've got one or both cranked too high - same with distortion or clipping at all dB levels you possibly listen to. No one has your room environment, even if they have the exact same equipment, and you have your own tastes. Experiment with a variety of sources and choose what you think sounds best to you IMO.

Note: Cranking the treble up in an attempt to compensate for higher frequencies clipped or missing in the source will not help. So avoid using 120Kbps MP3s for adjusting these settings.

If your Amplifier is set correctly when it left the factory, you should not have to adjust it. Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha are great examples of manufactures, that really shouldn't need tweaking. Remember that speaker matching is also important. Like you found out that hard way, pushing your treble up forced the tweater to do unwaranted movements. You are lucky you didn't blow, or crack the domes... By the way, if you decide to pump up the base a little, watch you don't overload you voice coils in the drivers, then they are useless. That wet fart sound is so 80's... Best advice leave it alone. Graphic EQ's can be good, but to adjust them from reference level (0) and make minor alterations, as you hear sound change. A good practive may be to use the same peice of music over and over again. Personally, not a good idea for home theatre, unless you have some really nasty sound acoustics in your home, which is highly unlikely (Coffered Ceiling, Cathedral Ceiling). Sound treatments is your best option there.

Long Story short I think I had mine at +2 for treble for the longest time. I set it by accident.... I always wondered why my center channel was off. It is now back to zero and sounds great.

I had the treble set high and just forgot. The clipping was occasional and minor but it was bugging me.
I have a Sony receiver and Sony bookshelfs for mains and surround and a Sony center channel all purchased separately (no HTIB). All my speakers are SPL to 72db when main volume is at level 55. So everything is matched. But with all the info about calibration out there you would think someone has something to say about treble.
Heres another question, is it better to adjust subwoofer level on the sub or on the receiver?
I adjust the sub.

[Post edited by Ironbull on May 20, 2008]

I was just about to start a thread kind of like this myself. I was wondering how others have their EQ's and Tones set up since I just got a new Onkyo receiver. At first I did the whole Audyssey thing. But that was all over the map. Some films seemed to bright with no bass. While others the bass overpowered the treble. So I turned it off and it was much better, neither was over powering the other. But I've been tinkering with manual EQ for the speakers trying to find a nice balance of bass and treble. But I have Bass at +2 and Treble at +6. But as I've said I've been tinkering with the numbers. I really didn't have this many options with my old receiver so trying to find a setting I'm pleased with. this one is taking a bit longer than the last one.

I always have the sub volume at half way on the sub itself. then on the receiver I turn it up to +8 on the speaker calibration. And the crossover I let the receiver take care of that also. but I'm not a professional in this area, I just set it to what sounds pleasing to me.

Ironbull, I asked a Yamaha tech about your subwoofer question a week ago and he told me to adjust the level on the sub itself to the halfway mark, then on your receiver adjust the LFE level to whatever sounds good to you.

Also he told me to set the crossover on the receiver to 80hz but on the sub to 120hz.

I called Paradigm on the same day and the tech there told me to setup all my speakers to Small, even my fronts which are Monitor 7's (with the matching center channel).

I hope this helps.

[Post edited by Falcon01 on May 20, 2008]

"The Trouble with Trebles"

Every loudspeaker sounds different, everyone's room configuration is different, and everyone's hearing is different. A receiver's treble and bass controls are there to compensate for these differences.

If the balance of your loudspeakers favors the high end, you may want to use the treble control to turn it down, as I do by about 2 db. If it favors the midrange and/or bass, you may want to turn up the treble control, etc. Only you can decide which setting is "right" for you. Be aware, however, that for every three decibels of volume, the amplifier must produce twice as much power. Turning up your treble by 6 db means you are essentially tripling the power you're feeding them, and unless your tweeters are really robust, at higher overall volume levels you could blow them out.

If your listening area is heavily carpeted and uses drapes and much padded furniture, the high end could be absorbed by the furnishings, requiring you turn up the treble. Conversely, if your listening area is sparsely furnished, perhaps with hardwood floors and hard, reverberant walls and ceiling, you might want to turn the treble down.

If you are over 30 and you've been around a lot of loud noise (or music) all your life, you may be experiencing hearing loss. It's quite common. And hearing loss most often affects your ability to perceive high frequencies. Thus, some people may want to turn up the treble to compensate for their own hearing deficiencies. A hearing test at a doctor's office helps, and/or a frequency-response test disc.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on May 20, 2008]

"...he told me to set the crossover on the receiver to 80hz but on the sub to 120hz." --Falcon

Which only serves to prove that most technicians don't know any more about what they're talking about than the next guy. Indeed, the day before yesterday they probably WERE the next guy.

Set the sub's crossover to the same frequency you set the receiver. That way, the sub takes over at about the same point the main speakers leave off. What you don't want is for the main speakers and the sub to be duplicating the same frequencies, which will cause a muddying of the sound in that area. Nor do you want to leave a hole in the frequency response. Thus, setting the subwoofer and the main speakers to the same crossover point is usually the best idea.

However, be aware that crossover points are not absolute. An 80hz crosssover point does cut off everything below 80hz. It merely begins tapering off the response below that frequency. Likewise, a woofer's 120hz crossover does not cut off everything above that point but tapers it off. The tapering-off slope depends on the manufacturer, and they sometimes include charts of the slope.

John

Try adjusting the Subwoofer LFE to a higher setting. You will find with an output of 8 to 10 db You will only have to have you volume on your sub to about 4 maybe 5 depending on the amp in the sub, and you will get great sounding bass. You will be happy, that you didn't spend huge money on a sub woofer.

Falcon1
Funny you mention Paradigm, my sub is a PDR 8. I also have all my speakers set to small. I only adjust the sub level on my sub. My receiver doesn't have cross over cut off so assume its 80. Sub is set to 80.

John
Your right about crossover cut offs. I did some experimenting a while back by turning off the sub and doing a sweep all channels (speakers only) and found that even though my speakers alone lack bass the sweep went well below 80hz and it wasn't a cutoff it was a gradual fade out.

Hmmmm good to know. I wonder if all receivers/amps handle the cutoff the same way. I tend to stick with Yamaha for receivers so I'll try this when I get my new one in a couple of weeks.

BTW Ironbull I'll be shopping for a new sub in a few months. Still deciding between a Paradigm or Velodyne sub. They're both really good. I read good reviews about your 8" Paradigm.

"I wonder if all receivers/amps handle the cutoff the same way." --Falcon

Most receivers handle crossovers slightly differently. The THX recommended crossover point is 80Hz, which is what most older receivers use. However, the tapering off--the crossover "slope"--beneath 80Hz can differ. Some receivers taper off more gradually under 80Hz than others. Many newer receivers allow the user to choose among a number of crossover points. Unfortunately, user manuals don't usually indicate the crosssover slope they use. So a degree of experimentation is in order.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on May 21, 2008]

Quote:
If you are over 30 and you've been around a lot of loud noise (or music) all your life, you may be experiencing hearing loss. It's quite common.

That'd be me. * raises hand *

ME TOO! AND RINGING! I HATE TREBLE!

Wow thanks John. You're a good man.

By the way I've decided to get the Yamaha 6180 that apparently has an improved YPAO (witht he mic for calibrating it). I'll let you know how it turns out when I get it in a week or two.

I have a feeling it may still be better to get the sound level meter out and use that but we'll see.

"I have a feeling it may still be better to get the sound level meter out and use that but we'll see." --Falcon

Nothing beats doing it yourself, if for no other reason than being reassured that it's done right.

My Onkyo receiver has a built-in calibration scheme with its own microphone, too. But I'd rather set up the speakers--the right height, right spacing--measure the distances and then set the delay times and the volume output levels myself, using a sound meter. Then jot down each of your settings for later reference and/or further tweaking.

John

Falcon
I really like my sub! It delivers those low freqs my old sub didn't. It really rounds my system out. I have it sitting right beside my couch. We hear and feel every frequency ! No phase switch but other than that I am really happy with it.

This thread has been very informative and I think I am going to keep the treble at+2db, down from max +6db and let myself adjust to that Then see I any minor + or - is needed.

Hey John,

THX reference spec is actually 85Hz, but who's counting. Most equipment is actually produced with 80Hz in mind. If you are tweaking your system it is best to use a SPL meter calibrated to 75Hz. Avia and DVE are set with reference tones of 75Hz. Use the DVD's via AC3/ DD 5.1. Avoid the Pink Noise. That pink noise associated with most Amps is actually 85Hz, especially the THX certified peices. Problems can arise when calibrating your speakers at the range of sound. Usually you will find that most LFE channel may appear to be hot. Flat Eq's are always recommended when setting the level output. I always adjust the gain output higher on the LFE channel, and have lower volume setting on the sub to acheive the 75HZ crossover setting on the sub. Did I just confuse you guys... It is always important to keep the 45 rule in place from your sweet spot. 45 degree balance between you front channels, poiting that 45 degree radius on the sweet spot. THX is hocus pocus for the rich and the those that spend stupid money on HT. Just becasue it is one man standard doens't make it standard for the rest of us. You be the judge of what you system sounds like. Everyones taste is different.

THX Sound System
- The Audience is Listening

(from the "quality assurance system" developed by Tomlinson Holman, with George Lucas's Lucasfilm Ltd)







THX is the trade name of a high-fidelity sound reproduction standard for movie theaters, screening rooms, home theaters, computer speakers, gaming consoles, and car audio systems. THX stands for Tomlinson Holman's eXperiment. THX was developed by Tomlinson Holman at George Lucas's company Lucasfilm in 1982 to ensure that the soundtrack for the third Star Wars film, Return of the Jedi, would be accurately reproduced in the best venues.

The THX system is not a recording technology, and it does not specify a sound recording format: all sound formats, whether digital (Dolby Digital, SDDS) or analog (Dolby SR, Ultra-Stereo), can be "shown in THX." THX is mainly a quality assurance system. THX-certified theaters provide a high-quality, predictable playback environment to ensure that any film soundtrack mixed in THX will sound as near as possible to the intentions of the mixing engineer. THX also provides certified theaters with a special crossover circuit whose use is part of the standard. Certification of an auditorium entails specific acoustic and other technical requirements architectural requirements include a floating floor, baffled and acoustically treated walls, no parallel walls (to reduce standing waves), a perforated screen (to allow center channel continuity), and NC30 rating for background noise.











~ These are for Eddie (posters5)...











_____________
-JIMI McLovin (the Voodoo Child)

[Post edited by Love Hendrix! on May 22, 2008]

Slave Leia pillow fight...mmmmm.

OMG, Why do you do that Love? You have officially weirded me out...

Quote:
It is always important to keep the 45 rule in place ...

Could you give more info on this, I never heard that before.

The whole idea is that you wan to keep roughly a 45 degree pattern placement of you speakers. The speakers should be pointing in your direction but the degree radius of each speaker should be roughly within 45 degrees of each other. So thing like IE panning left to right and FR to BR should sound natural. Most speakers project anywheres from 90 degree to 120 degrees, depending on the manufacture. You want to make sure that your within 45 degrees of the speaker overlapping each other. You want to create the perfect circle, or sweet spot, to get the most of your listening experience.

ReaggieP
Now I get it. I wasn't quite sure what you meant at first.
Thanks.

I've got a question. not on treble, but on frequency. I was looking at what my frequency was on my speakers and don't quite get something. not a big deal, but i'm just curious. On Polk's site they give these specs.

Overall Frequency Response 55Hz - 25kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 63Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 24kHz

i was just wondering whats the difference between the response numbers and the limit numbers. Why is it that the response is 55Hz and the limit is 63Hz.

Also would changing the frequency on my Onkyo to 60Hz mess anything up...though i know its not going to make any difference if i switch it since the sub is set for a 80Hz crossover. Again just wondering.

"Overall Frequency Response 55Hz - 25kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 63Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 24kHz

i was just wondering whats the difference between the response numbers and the limit numbers. Why is it that the response is 55Hz and the limit is 63Hz.

Also would changing the frequency on my Onkyo to 60Hz mess anything up...though i know its not going to make any difference if i switch it since the sub is set for a 80Hz crossover. Again just wondering" --Revolution

Yeah, the numbers can be confusing. Starting with the "overall frequency response," these are the numbers your manufacturer says are the lowest and highest frequencies your speakers can reproduce. In your case, Polk says your speaker can reach down into the bass as far as 55Hz (55 cycles per second), and it can reach up into the high notes, the treble, to 25k Hz (25,000 cycles per second, well above most human hearing).

However, the manufacturer also notes that just because your speakers reach down to 55Hz, that doesn't mean you may actually be able to hear it, because as they go on to say, the minus 3db point in the bass is actually 63Hz (at 63Hz the response is 3 db lower than the midrange). That means that below probably 70Hz your speakers' frequency response starts falling off (compared to its response at a midrange point, usually 1K Hz). By 55Hz (their lower usable limit), your speakers are probably 6-10 db down (meaning you could measure the reponse but probably not hear it in actual audio content). Same with the high end, except that they seem to hold up pretty well to beyond 20K Hz, which is quite good. Of course, you have to trust Polk that these numbers are accurate.

As for changing the crossover point in your receiver, if you have a subwoofer crossed over at 80Hz, I'd keep the receiver at 80Hz as well.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on May 26, 2008]

So in other words their just throwing out number that don't really matter for a general consumer with the overall frequency. Thanks for the answers.

I've got another question while that i'm pretty sure someone can answer. Kind of tricky...possibly. About my sub. A while back i noticed that my PC speakers had a stringer sub than my theater system. So i switched the subs. The question is since its a PC sub do you think there is a lot lost in the translation since i have to use a wire converter. I'm only asking because i was thinking of getting a new sub.

but after looking up the specs for the PC sub it seems to have a decent low frequency (35Hz) and 100 watts power. which is good enough for the size of the room. So don't know if it would even be worth getting a new sub. though with a new one i would have a bigger woofer (i was thinking a 10 in woofer would do) and all the normal inputs and options.

i would imagine a bigger woofer would have clearer bass hits. and that loosing the wire converter would probably have less audio loss. So my question is would it be worth it to spend another $200 on a sub since i just updated the rest of the speakers and receiver.

i know it sounds like a dumb question but i don't really need more than 100 watts and 35Hz (from what i read) is a good low.

Just knowing that the manufacturer says your subwoofer will reach down to 35Hz and uses 100w of power probably isn't telling you enough. You'll have to use your own ears or measurements. Does your sub do the job for you?

Remember, when a manufacturer says a speaker will go down to a certain frequency, that doesn't mean a person can actually hear it. Your sub may measure down to 35Hz, but that 35Hz frequency note may be ten or twenty decibels lower in volume than the midrange. That's where the minus-three-decibel point comes in handy when reading specifications. (For instance, my floor-standing VMPS RM40 living-room stereo speakers can easily reproduce a 20Hz note, but it's about six decibels lower than the midrange. The point at which the RM40s begin to roll off is actually about 25Hz. And my measurement of their -3 db point is about 22.5Hz. Needless to say, I don't need a subwoofer in the living-room stereo system, but I do use one in the home-theater room with bookshelf speakers, even though they're still relatively large speakers.)

Good subwoofers in the 10"-15" range can vary in price from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars, with everything in between. If you really want to change subs, I'd research what's available in your price range and then ask for recommendations from readers here at the Message Board.

John

[Post edited by John J. Puccio on May 26, 2008]

Well i should state that the pc sub is THX certified....not that it means much but at least i know theres some type of quality control. but ya it sounds alright to me.

Also i know frequencies are not exact. so i take the numbers with a grain of salt. but even if its 15Hz off its still not bad. But after updating all the speakers and receiver i can't help but think of an old idea. That things are only as good as the weakest link. and in this case it would be my sub. But can a mediocre sub bring a system down that much...i don't know.

and ive been looking at subs. from the polk line since it would match the speakers i have. they have one that seems good for 250...well seems good to me. Also been looking at Velodyne line of subs.

Velodyne subs are REALLY good. The 12" goes on sale every once in a while at futureshop.ca for almost half price. Next time it does I'm buying. A friend of mine purchased one and he was amazed at the sound it uts out.

I haven't heard any Polk subs but I'm sure they have some good ones. Also Paradigm makes some really good subs. Depends on your space and budget.

Well I have been listening with lowered treble and my center still has that distorted sound. I put my ear beside the tweeter and it doesn't sound like a crackle but more like a vibration when reproducing higher pitched voices. Like in Rambo 4 at the beginning when the guy tells him off for bringing to many cobras.
My center can handle up to 150 watts and has a range up to 50000 khz (I know my cats get to hear those high frequencies ) so I am disappointed that it is doing this . Anyways has anyone heard the tweeters off of Parts Express.com? Like the Pyle Pro? Are they any good? The price seems to be good in case I need to replace the tweeter.
I was looking at this one!
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=272-120

[Post edited by Ironbull on Jun 13, 2008]

Careful there Ironbull...your speaker's driver elements were matched to the characteristics of the cross-over, the cabinet and the other drivers...unless you can get a new, identical driver, you may be less than happy with the results of any swapping you are planning on doing.

BTW - wattage ratings are guidelines only...I can drive a 50 watt driver with 500 watts of clean power and be fine...yet if I took the same 50 watt driver and hit it with 50 watts of dirty power - bye bye driver.

But, I have noticed that there is a lot of over modulation on certain titles lately...sorry, but I cannot remember which ones...I think one was Shoot 'Em Up...just a level of fuzziness in the sound. Rock solid on older titles though...

Your setup may be fine...you may have just hit a cluster of bad software with poor sound tracks lately...

This is my center channel.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=101551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665256947

R-U-Serious
Thats what I was kind of thinking about the sound tracks themselves. You know when you watch deleted scenes and the sound is not cleaned up and sounds too um crisp or over bright? That is what I get on my center from time to time. Maybe your right and it could be over modulation like you said. HHMMMMM!
Thanks Though!

Ironbull, you can try and replace the tweeter, but IMHO, I'd go and buy another center channel speaker before attempting to fix it. Be a lot cheaper that trying to fix in the long run...you may save yourself some grey hair in the process

Ironbull,

I agree with r-u-serious. One of the biggest problems with simply replacing any driver in a multi-driver system is that manufacturers match the various drivers to be compatible with one another, and one of the biggest compatibility issues is efficiency. Different drivers, even of the same shape and size, will often play louder or softer for the same power input. You could wind up replacing your tweeter with one that plays louder or softer than the midrange driver in the same unit. Then the speaker would be too bright or too dull.

If you really want to keep the center channel speaker you have, contact the manufacturer and replace the tweeter with something they recommend. Otherwise, I'd say buy a whole new speaker.

John

John
That makes sense. I think I will just replace the speaker in the event it does blow the tweeter but the problem is only intermittent. I am just exploring some options. But I think I need to troubleshoot the vibration/crackle?!?! some more.
On that note does anyone know of some soundtracks with some bad over modulation that I could compare to?
Thanks Again.
If the tweeter does someday go it will be a lot easier to convince my Wife that I NEED A NEW ONE

Ironbull,

If you open up the enclosure (while your wife is gone) and stick a small pinhole through the tweeter material, you will get all the evidence your wife will need for you to buy a new unit.

John

Hey Ironbull,
Ive been kinda skimming over this thread. Are you sure you arent having some sort of "interference" problem here. Maybe your ac outlet is on the same line as another heavy appliance? Perhaps you have a ground loop hum? Are your electric and signal cables seperated or crossed at a 90 angle? All of these "problems" can show up in your speakers.